Edward Cullen #6

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amethyst
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by amethyst » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:11 pm

I am currently derived from my laptop so I have to use this computer. I intend to reply in the morning, but for now I just wanted to clear something up--the quote and analogy I supplied were not written by me, rather Stephenie. She has this nice, very long essay about vampires drinking blood, atonement and other cool stuff.
"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sat Nov 14, 2009 10:36 pm

Well, my guess is when Stephenie wrote that she wasn't addressing Edward specifically drinking blood, but rather vampires in general. For vampires in general, especially ones who don't know better, it's one thing, but Edward, who knew it wasn't how it had to be and knew it was wrong, did it anyway.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Kachiti » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:00 pm

amethyst wrote:I am currently derived from my laptop so I have to use this computer. I intend to reply in the morning, but for now I just wanted to clear something up--the quote and analogy I supplied were not written by me, rather Stephenie. She has this nice, very long essay about vampires drinking blood, atonement and other cool stuff.
Where is this quote located. Perhaps if I read the whole thing it would make more sense. Having a third degree in your throat would kill you but having your hand on fire is a different matter in entirely.
Frustrated love has been the incentive for many great works.

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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:09 pm

Um, I think the burn thing was a metaphor... like, the thirst makes their throats burn so bad it's LIKE having a third degree burn in their throats?
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Asheleyo » Sun Nov 15, 2009 12:54 am

I also can't see the metaphor working entirely. The only times I see it as valid is when a vampire is newborn, partially "starved" or finds their singer. But mature vampires obviously don't have that problem. Look at every last vampire that Bella encountered going through the Volturi headquarters: not a single one of them seemed to struggle with the allure of her pulsing blood.

And I think what makes the most impact in Edward's case is Edward's opinion of what he was doing. So what if I think it's good or bad to kill humans? The point is that Edward felt it was bad to kill them. He just didn't like not being fully satisfied by animals, and probably didn't believe it would be as much of a strain on his conscience as Carlisle made it out to be. I don't care what the other vampires think of it, since we're discussing whether or not Edward committed a murder. And I fully believe he would tell you he did. Not because he hates himself or thinks he's a monster, but because he took human life, no matter how low on the totem pole they were. It ate away at him until he couldn't live with that lifestyle anymore.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by diane771 » Sun Nov 15, 2009 1:17 am

Third-Degree Burns
A third-degree burn is one that has burned through all of the skin layers. Skin usually turns white, and there is no pain or other sensation because the nerves have been destroyed.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by una » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:47 pm

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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by amethyst » Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:24 pm

holdingoutforjacob wrote:Again, amethyst, in your sarcastic note to Kachiti, you're ignoring that second bucket of water to your other side, one that is considerably less troublesome to get, and while it would not be quite as satisfying, would still numb the pain. It's like putting anti-itch cream on a bug bite, it stops the itch, or the pain, but the bug bite is still there.

Well, then I guess we disagree that vampires are so superior to humans. I don't think they are. I think that they are, essentially, still humans, and should still be applied to the same moral and ethical laws we impose upon ourselves. Humans and vampires are the same species.

Also, consider about the "human superiority complex" that humans prey on animals that are pretty far removed from the intelligence of humans. We prey on things considerably low on the food chain, such as deer, cows, fish, and birds. Not the next link down.

Also, as Kachiti and Jazz Girl stated, Edward knew about the alternative and clearly knew it was wrong to do what he was doing, which is why he selected people that had already wasted their lives doing bad things.
Why should another bucket even possibly exist? Why would such an idea even occur to a vampire? Do honestly believe that a vampire should (and would) attempt to think of a way to spare a human life? I would understand how easy it is to believe that (from a human perspective), but you have to understand their cognitive thinking here. Humans are nothing but what cows are to us. Remember what Jasper described, there was a war over the “bigger dot”. That is enough to know how their minds work. This applies to Edward too, he for one is actually aware of another choice, but he refuses to lead that kind of life. I don’t know what to call that, other than normal-vampire- thinking. He was barely human. I think he was affected tremendously by the loss of his parents and human life so much that he had a conscience, which be to pass over the innocent and hunt the evil. A vampire's consience is barely moral and ethical based than what humans would expect, but . . . we are talking about the human blood bucket that they have a right to, in my opinion.

Humans and vampires are not the same species, technically, mentally, physically and maybe even emotionally. While they do exhibit some human-like behaviour does not take away from the fact that they are vampires. Humans are the basis for their molecular components, to say the least. I would have agreed with you if not for one point, because essentially Edward and any other vampire never died, they were never declared brain dead so to speak. They were still living, breathing humans but evolved in three days time into something entirely different. The Cullens are a “special case”, since they are able to identify with their human selves. Whether the same moral and ethical laws that we impose upon ourselves should be imposed to vampires too, that I can’t agree with but I am not going to offer my reasons to think otherwise because I am not sure this is the thread for it. I am really trying not to divert from the original discussion.

I am not sure I can agree with that. . . there are humans that are born with missing parts of their brains, humans that were born with down syndrome and there are many other humans that “are far removed from the intelligence [of the average] human” . . . Does the superiority complex still apply here? Are you honestly inferring that intelligence plays a part in how worth your life is? I really hope not.
"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Kachiti » Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:22 am

amethyst wrote: Why should another bucket even possibly exist? Why would such an idea even occur to a vampire? Do honestly believe that a vampire should (and would) attempt to think of a way to spare a human life? I would understand how easy it is to believe that (from a human perspective), but you have to understand their cognitive thinking here. Humans are nothing but what cows are to us. Remember what Jasper described, there was a war over the “bigger dot”. That is enough to know how their minds work. This applies to Edward too, he for one is actually aware of another choice, but he refuses to lead that kind of life. I don’t know what to call that, other than normal-vampire- thinking. He was barely human. I think he was affected tremendously by the loss of his parents and human life so much that he had a conscience, which be to pass over the innocent and hunt the evil. A vampire's consience is barely moral and ethical based than what humans would expect, but . . . we are talking about the human blood bucket that they have a right to, in my opinion.
Oh but they do have a conscience. Carlisle, Esme, Roseline, Alice, Emmett, Jasper, Edward plus the Denali clan is proof of that. But how they choose to follow it depends on how they live. Carlisle chose to listen to his, in doing so found a family whose bonds were fused by love not blood thirst. We are told that the vampires who ignore this and drink human blood mostly live as nomads no more then three in a group unless they are at war. Even the Volturi holds its large numbers together by fear. So they do have conscience of sort but how they choose to deal with it is depended on the vampire.

As far as the food chain is concern, microorganism are actually the lowest on the food chain. Cows are somewhere in the middle.
amethyst wrote: Humans and vampires are not the same species, technically, mentally, physically and maybe even emotionally. While they do exhibit some human-like behaviour does not take away from the fact that they are vampires. Humans are the basis for their molecular components, to say the least. I would have agreed with you if not for one point, because essentially Edward and any other vampire never died, they were never declared brain dead so to speak. They were still living, breathing humans but evolved in three days time into something entirely different. The Cullens are a “special case”, since they are able to identify with their human selves. Whether the same moral and ethical laws that we impose upon ourselves should be imposed to vampires too, that I can’t agree with but I am not going to offer my reasons to think otherwise because I am not sure this is the thread for it. I am really trying not to divert from the original discussion.
Okay, humans are more then just the molecular building blocks (from a molecular standpoint there are major differences). You see them as superior, others might see them as humans, only more evolved (I would go as far as saying that they are mutants) while some see them as less then human, demons. You should know that are certain criteria for what is consider living and vampires do not fit that bill. Vampires are not living, that is why they are called the undead even nature knows that. When it comes to emotion,we are the same. We both have fears, worry, laugh, have desires and are afraid but in vampires it is felt more intensely. So, let's look at a vampire and a human.

Human are born, vampires are created, which means they need humans to make more vampires. Human can grow, vampires being dead, cannot, they stay at the age or stage that they are when they are turned. Humans can reproduce, vampires can't unless its with a HUMAN (can't do that with a cow). Let's look at this even closer. Human and vampires are very similar in appearance. They both have hair, which grows in a human while again with the dead trait, a vampires does not. We both have senses; eyes, ears, nose and mouth, only with a vampire their sense are more acute. They both have brain, however due to having a longer lifespan, a vampire's brain has much greater capabilities. Since they never forget, it help to give rise to a suppose it "superior mind". They both have lungs but vampires don't breathe or require air. They would make great astronaut. I could go on but I think the point has been made.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by amethyst » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:14 pm

Kachiti wrote:Oh but they do have a conscience. Carlisle, Esme, Roseline, Alice, Emmett, Jasper, Edward plus the Denali clan is proof of that. But how they choose to follow it depends on how they live. Carlisle chose to listen to his, in doing so found a family whose bonds were fused by love not blood thirst. We are told that the vampires who ignore this and drink human blood mostly live as nomads no more then three in a group unless they are at war. Even the Volturi holds its large numbers together by fear. So they do have conscience of sort but how they choose to deal with it is depended on the vampire.

As far as the food chain is concern, microorganism are actually the lowest on the food chain. Cows are somewhere in the middle.

Okay, humans are more then just the molecular building blocks (from a molecular standpoint there are major differences). You see them as superior, others might see them as humans, only more evolved (I would go as far as saying that they are mutants) while some see them as less then human, demons. You should know that are certain criteria for what is consider living and vampires do not fit that bill. Vampires are not living, that is why they are called the undead even nature knows that. When it comes to emotion,we are the same. We both have fears, worry, laugh, have desires and are afraid but in vampires it is felt more intensely. So, let's look at a vampire and a human.

Human are born, vampires are created, which means they need humans to make more vampires. Human can grow, vampires being dead, cannot, they stay at the age or stage that they are when they are turned. Humans can reproduce, vampires can't unless its with a HUMAN (can't do that with a cow). Let's look at this even closer. Human and vampires are very similar in appearance. They both have hair, which grows in a human while again with the dead trait, a vampires does not. We both have senses; eyes, ears, nose and mouth, only with a vampire their sense are more acute. They both have brain, however due to having a longer lifespan, a vampire's brain has much greater capabilities. Since they never forget, it help to give rise to a suppose it "superior mind". They both have lungs but vampires don't breathe or require air. They would make great astronaut. I could go on but I think the point has been made.
The conscience that each member of the Cullen and Denali families enquires was not by chance. Rather there is a defining link. They were all affected by something stronger that made them develop a conscience. I believe we know them all so I won’t dwell too much on this, other vampires, the Voltri for instance; their conscience is specifically affected by their personality (We have Aro, for example) and a vampire’s superiority and natural thinking. I never disagreed on this fact.

I am not sure what’s relevant about microorganisms being on the lowest of the food chain?

While there are certain criteria of what defines living, and vampires certainly do not fit them all—they do fit some. Their organs and tissues I would like to refer to as vestigial. They no longer continue to function in a way that they had before because of their evolution. Vampires do fit some of the biological characteristics of living organisms (i.e. homeostasis, organization, mobility/locomotion). As I mentioned previously, the vampires of the twilight world before they evolved into vampires, they were never declared brain dead. They never technically died therefore cannot be referred to as the “undead”. Vampires never died, so to speak and therefore in my opinion still do retain their souls and living cells. While they do not exhibit growth, senescence and further determination of critical living factors, I would like to state that they are composed of living cells and are able to reproduce (despite it being solely with a human). This concludes that they are alive to some degree, but in completely different way. It is completely irrational because they are supernatural beings.
"I never would have banished him from her society as long as she desired his. . . . . But, till then--if you don't believe me, you don't know me--till then, I would have died by inches before I touched a single hair of his head!"

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