Edward Cullen #6

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Jazz Girl
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Jazz Girl » Tue Nov 17, 2009 3:52 pm

In my opinion, the entire debate about why it is or is not okay is fairly moot. The original question was if there were things about Edward which we shouldn't admire. Regardless of his reasoning, if it was instinct or not, etc... the fact that he chooses to take human life when it is not necessary I don't find an admirable quality. There are so many many qualities which Edward brings that I do find admirable, as well as so many things that he did to redeem that choice. But, that in and of itself I do not see as an admirable thing.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Kachiti » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:08 pm

amethyst wrote: The conscience that each member of the Cullen and Denali families enquires was not by chance. Rather there is a defining link. They were all affected by something stronger that made them develop a conscience. I believe we know them all so I won’t dwell too much on this, other vampires, the Voltri for instance; their conscience is specifically affected by their personality (We have Aro, for example) and a vampire’s superiority and natural thinking. I never disagreed on this fact.
There is nothing higher then a conscience, having a conscience is one of the defines us whether it be human or vampire.
amethyst wrote:While there are certain criteria of what defines living, and vampires certainly do not fit them all—they do fit some. Their organs and tissues I would like to refer to as vestigial. They no longer continue to function in a way that they had before because of their evolution. Vampires do fit some of the biological characteristics of living organisms (i.e. homeostasis, organization, mobility/locomotion). As I mentioned previously, the vampires of the twilight world before they evolved into vampires, they were never declared brain dead. They never technically died therefore cannot be referred to as the “undead”. Vampires never died, so to speak and therefore in my opinion still do retain their souls and living cells. While they do not exhibit growth, senescence and further determination of critical living factors, I would like to state that they are composed of living cells and are able to reproduce (despite it being solely with a human). This concludes that they are alive to some degree, but in completely different way. It is completely irrational because they are supernatural beings.
Okay, the criteria for life is like a nerve cell, its all or nothing, you can't pick and choose. Otherwise, viruses would be consider living. Vampires might have cells but don't reproduce or I should I say divide. If that were the cases they would be able to grow older, and be able to grow things like nails or hair. They would produce sweat or require the use of bathroom to get rid of waste. Since they're cell are forever frozen in stasis they don't meet the criteria. Also, I think your relying on the term brain dead a little to much. You need to understand that the term brain dead is a legal definition not a biological one. When person heart stops and can't be resuscitated then the person is dead. The term brain dead is mostly used when a person heart has stopped for over the a certain amount of time which is depended on the circumstance. The brain is deprived of oxygen during that of time and they are able resuscitate. Then an electroencephalograph is used to determine higher brain function. Please note that the person is almost always on life support. So under the criteria for life, even if they are supernatural beings, vampires are not consider living.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by una » Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:57 pm

I believe this discussion regarding whether vampires are alive or dead is going off-topic (especially as we dig into biology and philosophy) as it was once used to discuss Edward but it now a more global look at vampires. If you would like to continue discussing this (and I encourage you to do so) please take it over to the The Science of Twilight thread (and it seems they need a new topic there anyway) or the Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings thread, both of which can be found on the Quench your Thirst forum. I would highly suggest Science of Twilight, I think it is best suited there.

Now, to get back on topic, Jazzgirl correctly stated that we were asked: What qualities should we and shouldn't we admire about Edward?
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Jazz Girl » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:10 am

una wrote:I believe this discussion regarding whether vampires are alive or dead is going off-topic (especially as we dig into biology and philosophy) as it was once used to discuss Edward but it now a more global look at vampires. If you would like to continue discussing this (and I encourage you to do so) please take it over to the The Science of Twilight thread (and it seems they need a new topic there anyway) or the Twilight Universe General Philosophical Musings thread, both of which can be found on the Quench your Thirst forum. I would highly suggest Science of Twilight, I think it is best suited there.

Now, to get back on topic, Jazzgirl correctly stated that we were asked: What qualities should we and shouldn't we admire about Edward?
Una~ not that I would want to disagree with a mod, but I do think that Edward's motivations and instincts that drove the decision to rebel are appropriate topics for discussion. So much of the discussion of Edward's character revolves around his sacrifice and his resisting his own vampiric nature that deeper understanding of that is always an interesting topic. But, yes, the original question was a bit different.

But, in the vein of moving on, I will pose a question which was came to my mind due to a recent script quote I saw for New Moon. At some point, charlie tells Bella (in the film) that, "you have to learn to love what's good for you?" But, I want to turn this idea around a little.

Do you believe that Bella was good for Edward?
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Asheleyo » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:05 am

Jazz Girl wrote:Do you believe that Bella was good for Edward?[/color]
Honestly, yes. I think Edward needed someone like Bella who would not go along with everything silently, someone who would dig her heels in and say "no" when appropriate. Basically, Edward needed to be with someone who would bring him down from his "know-it-all" status. I'm not saying that as an insult to Edward, but even the other Cullens admit that he's gotten a bit of a head about him because of his ability to read minds. But Bella's shield plus her personality were just what he needed. And once Bella grew up with the series (though no one can really blame her for not being completely ready to handle vampires and werewolves and all that brought with it), I believe she became a perfect match for Edward. She came to understand that sometimes she didn't need to share every little detail with him, but she was ready to share anything that he did need to know. She enjoyed doing so because she liked sharing herself with him.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by una » Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:06 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:Una~ not that I would want to disagree with a mod, but I do think that Edward's motivations and instincts that drove the decision to rebel are appropriate topics for discussion. So much of the discussion of Edward's character revolves around his sacrifice and his resisting his own vampiric nature that deeper understanding of that is always an interesting topic. But, yes, the original question was a bit different.
Oh, please, do disagree with me Jazzgirl, especially when discussing the characters here, that's the point...discussion, a exchange of ideas, opinions, theories, etc. all supported by facts (especially when you disagree so politely). :D However, the discussion was becoming less about Edward's nature and more about vampires, biology and how that relates as a whole, not just to Edward. This thread is about Edward so any more global discussions still must come back to how that affects or effected Edward and his actions, thoughts, etc. When the discussion moved to being more about vampires in general and not about Edward specifically (or coming back to, this is why Edward...) I unfortunately had to intervene. However, I am intrigued by the discussion and that is why I strongly encourage this topic to be discussed in the Science of Twilight thread, it's the perfect place for this discussion, especially since we can compare and contrast the veggie vs. non-veggie vamps.
Jazz Girl wrote:But, in the vein of moving on, I will pose a question which was came to my mind due to a recent script quote I saw for New Moon. At some point, charlie tells Bella (in the film) that, "you have to learn to love what's good for you?" But, I want to turn this idea around a little.

Do you believe that Bella was good for Edward?
I always support a change in topic and I find this one an interesting one that hasn't yet to be explored. The quote is interesting, how could Edward not love Bella? She was the first mystery he'd ever encountered. The first human, especially, whose mind was not open to him. Of course, Edward being the person who loves to have all the answers would be inescapably drawn to Bella, a puzzle he had to figure out. But her personality and physical appearance greatly appealed to Edward, drawing him in further, causing him to fall in love with her. Edward was always surprised by her reactions, her thoughts because of her unique view on the world and the fact that she was, in some ways, more mature than her peers. This was VERY good for Edward because he made him second-guess himself when it came to her, he didn't always know everything and it was a very important lesson he learns. That and trusting her when he couldn't read her mind. Think of how easy it must be for Edward to know whether to trust or not trust someone...he knows their inner thoughts. He had to learn faith, truly, through Bella, learning to trust her instincts, her gut-feelings about people and situations.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by amethyst » Fri Nov 20, 2009 10:15 pm

Jazz Girl wrote: Do you believe that Bella was good for Edward?[/color]
It’s always been such a solidified inference to me that Bella is both Edward’s greatest weakness and greatest strength. She completely and utterly destroys him and he’s incapable of saving himself from himself because he’s self-destructible. Yet she inspires him and makes him his most happiest in his very long life. He’s extremely possessive and so loving of her, that he will go to any length to shelter and shield her from possible harm, even himself, at the expense of his happiness in turn of sparing her a life he feels she should have. The choices he executes that may otherwise make her conspire against him, he executes for her. He never once thinks of what he wants, or what he needs it is always what Bella wants and what Bella needs. He can not deny her. Bella takes advantage of that, further exposing how utterly helpless he is against her wishes. Every action he conducts, whether moral or immoral, wrong or right, without exception Bella’s well-being is at the very heart of his intentions. She drives him insane, makes him suffer and hurt yet endures it as long as she is happy.

Whether Bella is good for Edward or not . . . I am undecided. She completely drives the Bella and Edward ship. She has him wrapped around her littler finger. And she never reciprocates to his degree. She causes him pain and sufferings. She completely drives him insane. When he stated she will be the death of him, he wasn’t being hyperbole-ish. Yet above all, she makes him happy. To an extent she’s very good for him. But after Breaking Dawn, all of that is out the window and into a garbage can, she’s very good to and for him.

I hope that answers the question.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by holdingoutforjacob » Sun Nov 22, 2009 1:15 am

Although how good Bella is to Edward can be debated, I think that she's very good for Edward. Not necessarily because of who she is in and of herself, but because of what she represents.

Bella is the only human Edward has cared for in over 100 years. Not to mention the fact that his vampire family will love him unconditionally. So really, his relationship with Bella teaches him how to be in functional relationships with people. It teaches him that he's not always right. It teaches him how to communicate with people. It teaches him to be less reactionary. It teaches him that he doesn't know everything and he needs to listen to others sometimes and not make assumptions. I really think his relationship with Bella made him a better person, a more pleasant person to be around.

Now, whether the same can be said for her, the jury's still out.
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Esme echo » Sun Nov 22, 2009 8:33 pm

I really like your last comment, holdingoutforjacob, and it has piqued my curiosity.
:?: Here's a question for all: How was Edward different among other vampires in Breaking Dawn than he was in Twilight -- because of his relationship with the human Bella?

In other words, did Edward grow -- as in change -- in how he related to other vampires because of his relationship with Bella? Was all his changing just learning how to love in a relationship, or did it go farther than that?
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Re: Edward Cullen #6

Post by Jazz Girl » Sun Nov 22, 2009 9:12 pm

Esme echo wrote:I really like your last comment, holdingoutforjacob, and it has piqued my curiosity.
:?: Here's a question for all: How was Edward different among other vampires in Breaking Dawn than he was in Twilight -- because of his relationship with the human Bella?

In other words, did Edward grow -- as in change -- in how he related to other vampires because of his relationship with Bella? Was all his changing just learning how to love in a relationship, or did it go farther than that?

I think trying to seperate them is a fool's errand. The changes Edward experienced would not have happened had he not found and loved and been loved by Bella. Everything about Edward that alters, from his general belief about his soul to his slightly lessened superiority complex to his generally more open and accepting demeanor to his happiness, can be directly linked back to his relationship with Bella. That is the best part of his story, IMO. If you are asking if the changes would have been different or less or what have you if Bella had been a vampire... well, I suppose you could make the logical inference that he would not have had to be nearly as careful or solicitous or protective if his love was less breakable. But, I also don't think he would have been attracted to another vampire. He loves his family, but he generally believes his entire species to be monsters. And, Edward could not love a monster.

So, I guess the short answer to the question is yes, the changes were because of his relationship. But, to say that they were not deep and profound changes is, I think, foolish. Loving Bella changed Edward to his very core. It doesn't get any deeper than that.
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