Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Tornado
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:12 am

Violet Sunlight wrote:Firstly, in regards, to Edward and Jacob being a soul mates to Bella, for me, I do see and understand the romantic relationship between Bella & Jacob and if, Bella, sincerely and genuinely, thought that Jacob was her other soul mate in a world where there was no magic/Edward and if SM confirms it, then for me, it is a closed subject.
Just because Bella said it doesn't mean that SM agrees with it, although I agree that it is likely in this case. And even if she does think that one of the reasons we have this forum is to discuss these issues, even if we disagree with SM. There are other things SM has said that you seem to disagree with. We all have areas where we disagree with her.
Violet Sunlight wrote:I certainly, agree about the baby. However, Bella’s broken and bruised body and her NM catatonic state of mind, etc., do not lead me to believe she was right about being safe with Edward as a human. IMO, as a human, I don’t think she was right to be in a vampire relationship to begin with. But, being that Edward is her soul mate in the supernatural world she lives in, she, understandably, had to make arrangements to correct that error hence, the reason she decides to become a vampire.
When I said "safe" I was meaning ultimately. She always felt safe with Edward in Twilight, and says so several times. That is, she always knew he was strong enough to resist the temptation to kill her.
Violet Sunlight wrote:I DON’T believe Renemee’s humanity is an exact duplicate/clone of Bella’s humanity. IMO, Renesmee represents a type/part/image of Bella’s humanity.
It's still clear that it wasn't Bella's humanity that attracted Jake, or he would have imprinted on her. Renesmee has additional elements that attract him.
Violet Sunlight wrote:I was referring to Renesmee’s thirst/craving for human blood, like I have said in the past, it is the vampire’s burden/handicap to bear. I wasn’t referring to anything else. I thought that was what you were originally referring to. I thought Jacob’s biggest contention about vampires was their thirst for human blood. He is always saying, blood sucker this and blood sucker that, all the time. My apologies, for the misunderstanding.
Yes, it is interesting that he seems to have got over this prejudice entirely by the time Renesmee is old enough to go hunting, presumably because he's seen the level of control that the Cullens have over that base instinct. It would be interesting to know whether Renesmee's thirst is as strong as theirs or if it is slightly less because she has human elements and can exist on human food.
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Re: Explorations

Post by smitten_by_twilight » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:09 pm

Corona, your ominous music made me giggle. Seriously, the Saga provoked in me (among other things) huge anxieties about death that I spent months and months resolving, by finally coming to the (rather obvious) conclusion that even for vampires, life is uncertain. Now searching for smut as the antidote to death ....

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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:33 pm

To Tornado ~
Tornado wrote:Just because Bella said it doesn't mean that SM agrees with it, although I agree that it is likely in this case. And even if she does think that one of the reasons we have this forum is to discuss these issues, even if we disagree with SM. There are other things SM has said that you seem to disagree with. We all have areas where we disagree with her.
Yes, of course. I kindly say, nowhere in my quote did I mention, insinuate or suggest, that anyone change or stop sharing their own personal POV. I am just simply sharing my own personal POV, as is everyone else is on this forum. Furthermore, I am very glad and thankful that there is such a wonderful site as this one, to be able to share one’s own agreeing or disagreeing opinions of the Twilight story, themes, characters and Author.
Tornado wrote: Yes, but their days were numbered as humans as well. They both would have died, likely a lot sooner than they will now. And while they will die a violent death as a vampire, I believe they have as great a chance at heaven as the rest of us. Let's face it: death is the lot of us all, and some of us may, ourselves, experience violent death (insert screeching brakes sound here). So, apart from the thirst aspect, their lot is not much different from our own, except that their existence on this planet is likely to be much longer.
I agree.

To Corona ~

I enjoyed your 1/20/12 post, especially your thoughts on vampire DEATH.

Firstly, Bella thinks veggie-vampires keep their souls, hence a hopeful and prosperous Happy Ending vampire-afterlife (meaning after a veggie-vampire is destroyed). And to some degree, so does Edward in NM, at the Volterra Clock Tower. Therefore, with Bella’s outlook, one gets to have their cake and eat it too. With Bella’s outlook, a veggie-vampire gets to live their fairy tale existence and never lose their soul, hence the veggie-vampires have the same hope of an afterlife as we humans have. For Bella it is a win, win. Though, I must admit, IMO, Bella has a knack for making dangerous things look easy or maybe bearable is a better word. Maybe that’s one of the reasons she is like the MVP of the veggie-vampires (along with Carlisle, of course), she makes it look almost effortless.

But, if you are meaning that the style of death that will be delivered to the vampires will not be a happy ending as appose to us, well I agree with Tornado’s 1/20/12 response to your post in regards to vampire DEATH.

But, if I may be yet gloomier than you, your Bree omen comments had me thinking for a while. And this is what I came up with, firstly, for a red eyed vampire it makes sense to me that they would get murdered by another vampire or even a shape-shifter. After all, the red eyed vampire lives by murder, so it stands to reason, the red eyed vampire would die by murder or even self-murder/suicide.

Secondly, I thought about the horrific grief they, by nature, must bear. Again, same line of thinking came to me. As a red eyed vampire, if you live by inflicting grief on the living, then it stands to reason, when it would be the vampire’s turn to experience grief for their loss, it would be a concentrated form of it.

Lastly, I thought a little more regarding the yellow eyed vampires. The only yellow eyed vampire I remembered ever getting destroyed was Irina. And for me, her destruction had a double meaning (though I am sure there are more). Due to her vengeful nature, she betrayed her family and put them in imminent danger from the vampire police/judge/jury (I can’t remember right now, if she was trying to have all the Cullens killed or one of the Cullens in particular), who ironically, betrayed her and destroyed her instead. Maybe there is a rhyme and reason, of the order of things, in the Twilight Universe. Well, hopefully for the yellow eyed vampires at least. I mean, vampires have to die twice, as a human and then again as a vampire. I would hope the veggie-vampires could catch a break somehow. But regardless, death hurts and it is uncomfortable, no matter in what form, or time, it comes in.

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    Re: Explorations

    Post by corona » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:56 pm

    I'm so sorry for not responding, I've been very busy lately, but I have a few comments coming up shortly.

    I wanted to throw this thought out, though. If Stephenie had ever thought this whole project out and planned everything thorougly from the first book, we might not be discussing Twilight right now.

    One other thought I had. What happened to Alice's vision of her and Bella, smiling, with their arms around each other? I know that was mostly in Midnight Sun, but it is referred to (but never described) in TW and NM, and obliquely there at the end of EC. I have that picture emblazoned in my memory, and I was sad that it didn't crop up again in BD. Shame on Edward and Alice both for keeping that from us.

    Interesting, though, isn't it? Alice's vision gave Edward everything he really needed to put the pieces of the puzzle together, but all he could see was Bella's red eyes, not her friendship with Alice or the fact she was happy. I suppose it couldn't have been a vision of Edward and Bella together, happy, because Edward wouldn't make as much sense or be as sympathetic later. He couldn't be driven mad by the vision of their happiness together, although that would be peversely funny at times. But he doesn't want to see that. That vision, though, shows that SM knew she was always going to come back to Bella's way of looking at things, even as she shows the potential darkness in EC.
    "It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Tornado » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:19 pm

    He does comment, though, that in that vision Bella's face looks "cold and immortal". So although the pose was still the same, her face was not. Now, I'm sure that, it being Edward, his negativity was colouring that image, but just seeing her as a vampire, still caring enough to have her arm around Alice, doesn't necessarily mean that she was happy to be that way, so it's understandable that he may have thought it inconclusive.
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Violet Sunlight » Wed Jan 25, 2012 4:27 pm

    corona wrote: I'm so sorry for not responding, I've been very busy lately, but I have a few comments coming up shortly.
    No worries, I understand.
    corona wrote: I wanted to throw this thought out, though. If Stephenie had ever thought this whole project out and planned everything thorougly from the first book, we might not be discussing Twilight right now.
    Oh, perish the thought. :worried: I love the way things turned out. :D Thank goodness for SM's publishers.

    corona wrote: One other thought I had. What happened to Alice's vision of her and Bella, smiling, with their arms around each other? I know that was mostly in Midnight Sun, but it is referred to (but never described) in TW and NM, and obliquely there at the end of EC. I have that picture emblazoned in my memory, and I was sad that it didn't crop up again in BD. Shame on Edward and Alice both for keeping that from us.
    Well for me personally, I can let that go because I got more than enough sisterly bonding at the end of EC. When Bella and Alice were in Alice’s closet and Alice was showing Bella the wedding gown she picked out for her, it just doesn’t get any more sisterly than that, for me anyway.

    “It’s beautiful. It’s just right for him.” Then a few lines after Bella says, “Can I see your dress?” I asked. She blinked, her face blank. “Didn’t you order your bridesmaid dress at the same time? I wouldn’t want my maid of honor to wear something off the rack.” I pretended to wince in horror. She threw her arms around my waist. “Thank you, Bella!” “How could you not see that one coming?” I teased, kissing her spiky hair. “Some psychic you are!”.

    This conversation was just soo sweet for me, more than I expected. :D

    And regarding vampire-Bella and Alice, I thought Alice bonded great with vampire-Bella. Alice again, picked out Bella’s dress while Bella was burning (I think Alice was the one that changed Bella while she was burning, though I am not sure), she designed and stocked her ginormous closet in her new cottage. And it was cute how she climbed on vampire-Bella’s back and covered her eyes before the grand reveal of her new cottage. Again, soo sweet and sisterly.

    In any event, maybe SM could not show vampire-Bella and Alice bonding exactly like the TW/MS’ vision, in BD. I mean, I would guess Alice’s original vision of Bella being a vampire did not entail Renesmee as being part of the equation. Maybe, pregnant Bella upgraded/changed/canceled the original vision into what we saw/read in BD. Though, I too even wondered if the movie of BD2 is going to show Alice’s NM movie vision. But, Renesmee’s existence made me think otherwise. Though, anything is possible.
    corona wrote: That vision, though, shows that SM knew she was always going to come back to Bella's way of looking at things, even as she shows the potential darkness in EC.
    Yes, the plan, from the beginning, was always for Bella to become a vampire. I also, saw Alice’s TW/MS vision as one of the many foreshadowings sprinkled throughout the story as well. Even Edward’s warnings to Jasper in TW/MS, to keep his distance from Bella, was to no avail in NM. So many things were just too inevitable.

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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Tornado » Wed Jan 25, 2012 5:34 pm

    From what SM has said about Alice's visions I think they are usually just pictures or snapshots of the future, rather than moving images. That was the impression I got from something she said, anyway. Now, obviously in a movie they're going to make it more than that because it looks better, but the vision probably told Alice little more than that Bella would become her friend and Bella would become a vampire.
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by corona » Wed Jan 25, 2012 6:16 pm

    Whatever vision Alice had, the one thing that always struck me was that Edward was never in it.

    I have often wondered if Alice's vision wasn't something that had actually come through Edward's own eyes.

    Sometimes I feel really stupid and figure things out long after I should have. OF COURSE Edward wouldn't be in the vision himself, that would be the dumbest thing SM could have done, have a vision of Edward and red-eyed Bella together, laughing and gazing at each other with love. Duh!

    I thought for the longest time that just Alice and Bella was really odd. Hey, this is about Edward and Bella, what's Alice doing there? Sure, they are friends, but wouldn't the overwhelming love between B&E make a vision of the two of them something more sensible to show than Alice and Bella? Wouldn't that make it more logical? Isn't that a more important vision to show us?

    Duh. Me Stupid. Me Not Author. Me Not Think Right. Me Not Taluntedd.

    Edward has to reject that vision.

    Story-wise, maybe Edward wasn't there because he would have fought it the entire way (which he did). And, yeah Violet Sunlight, Renesmee could have provided a twist to it as well. I'm probably overthinking the whole thing.

    Tornado, I was going back to read MS after seeing your comments. Instead of coming up with a rebuttal, I got lost in MS again. I ended up finding more lines I would love to quote here, but I can't. What a shame. In some ways, that book that never was ended up being the best in the series.

    OK, I'm going ahead anyway, but with the invisible font:

    In Bella's bedroom the first time, right before she says his name in her sleep:

    After all, it really didn't matter if I left, because Bella could never see me the way I wished she would. Never see me as someone worthy of love. Never.


    What a great tie-in to that final scene in BD. What a shame we can't read the whole thing.
    "It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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    Re: Explorations

    Post by Tornado » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:03 pm

    I always thought it was likely Alice was in the vision instead of Edward because she is seeing Bella as far as she as concerned. After all, it's Alice's vision; Edward's just seeing it in her mind, and it was this vision that stopped Jasper from his homicidal intentions, because to hurt a friend of Alice's would hurt Alice.

    Corona, I can't tell you how much I would give to read Midnight Sun. It kills me to know that, if not for some idiot who wanted his/her fifteen minutes of infamy, we would have it by now.
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    Re: Explorations

    Post by marielle » Thu Jan 26, 2012 3:05 am

    corona wrote:I thought for the longest time that just Alice and Bella was really odd. Hey, this is about Edward and Bella, what's Alice doing there? Sure, they are friends, but wouldn't the overwhelming love between B&E make a vision of the two of them something more sensible to show than Alice and Bella? Wouldn't that make it more logical? Isn't that a more important vision to show us?
    I don't think it would make more sense... actually, though Bella was completely decided on becoming a vampire, it was in the end Alice decision to make her a vampire. Alice was the first one to give in, on the plane to Voltera she said that she considered changing Bella herself just to get rid of the stupid situation. she, after Bella's begging gave her word that she would change Bella... of course you get all the events afterwards with carlisle promising Bella he'll do it and with Edward hammering out details... but couldn't be that first vision of Bella and Alice as friends be a result of that future, that Bella will be changed by Alice as her change is decided on for the first time.
    than it would make sense that Edward isn't there, it could be that he isn't happy, that he is still against what had happened even though Bella is happy.
    Violet Sunlight wrote:Alice again, picked out Bella’s dress while Bella was burning (I think Alice was the one that changed Bella while she was burning, though I am not sure), she designed and stocked her ginormous closet in her new cottage. And it was cute how she climbed on vampire-Bella’s back and covered her eyes before the grand reveal of her new cottage. Again, soo sweet and sisterly.
    Though I agree with you that this is all really cute and sisterly, I think this also has a lot to do with who Alice is. I believe somewhere Bella claims it's hard to resist Alice anything because she is just so enthousiastic about every thing... Bella could have attacked Alice for jumping on her just as a reflex of a new born but something in Alice makes her feel friendly and good natured...
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