Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Violet Sunlight
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Re: Explorations

Post by Violet Sunlight » Thu Jan 26, 2012 4:24 pm

Tornado wrote: From what SM has said about Alice's visions I think they are usually just pictures or snapshots of the future, rather than moving images. That was the impression I got from something she said, anyway. Now, obviously in a movie they're going to make it more than that because it looks better, but the vision probably told Alice little more than that Bella would become her friend and Bella would become a vampire.
Yes, I remember reading the details of Alice's visions as well. So I looked it up and found it on this site. It is in Personal Correspondence #9 (towards the end). It says:
Q. Alice’s visions-are they animated or like photographs?
A. Both, but more often like still photographs. She gets motionless images most of the time. The moving visions (and the ones with sound) are only of things that are very concrete and sure (usually the ones that are almost about to happen).


I think it’s neat, that the moving-visions have sound too. Seeing Alice’s moving-visions would probably be better than watching a movie in a 3D IMAX theatre. Also, IMO, the guide should have had this piece of information under Alice’s profile. Though, the guide does, vaguely, insinuate one of her visions (her mother’s death) being an animated one. Well, thank goodness for all those correspondences and other sources available to us, so we can piece everything together.

Tornado wrote: I always thought it was likely Alice was in the vision instead of Edward because she is seeing Bella as far as she as concerned. After all, it's Alice's vision; Edward's just seeing it in her mind, and it was this vision that stopped Jasper from his homicidal intentions, because to hurt a friend of Alice's would hurt Alice.
marielle wrote: I don't think it would make more sense... actually, though Bella was completely decided on becoming a vampire, it was in the end Alice decision to make her a vampire. Alice was the first one to give in, on the plane to Voltera she said that she considered changing Bella herself just to get rid of the stupid situation. she, after Bella's begging gave her word that she would change Bella... of course you get all the events afterwards with carlisle promising Bella he'll do it and with Edward hammering out details... but couldn't be that first vision of Bella and Alice as friends be a result of that future, that Bella will be changed by Alice as her change is decided on for the first time.
than it would make sense that Edward isn't there, it could be that he isn't happy, that he is still against what had happened even though Bella is happy.
Agree. Both of these quotes make a lot of sense to me.
marielle wrote: Though I agree with you that this is all really cute and sisterly, I think this also has a lot to do with who Alice is. I believe somewhere Bella claims it's hard to resist Alice anything because she is just so enthousiastic about every thing... Bella could have attacked Alice for jumping on her just as a reflex of a new born but something in Alice makes her feel friendly and good natured...
Yes, absolutely. Bella could have so easily thrown Alice off her back, but Bella has a soft spot for her best-friend-sister-in-law Alice and I think Alice knows that. I also, think Alice has a good deal in her vampire life, in regards to Edward and Bella. Edward is her favorite brother and his wife Bella is her best-friend/sister-in-law. Good combination.
corona wrote: And, yeah Violet Sunlight, Renesmee could have provided a twist to it as well. I'm probably overthinking the whole thing.
Overthinking, anything and everything Twilight, seems to be our theme here. So you are in good company. Please let the Twilight overthinking continue. It is all very interesting to me. :D

Also, it just occurred to me that, the vision you were looking for is the one in the NM movie. I think Bella even has yellow eyes in the NM movie version. I guess you were not the only one who thought Alice's vision should have been Edward and Bella and not the way it is. How ironic to our conversation?

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Re: Explorations

Post by corona » Thu Jan 26, 2012 5:32 pm

Violet Sunlight wrote:Also, it just occurred to me that, the vision you were looking for is the one in the NM movie. I think Bella even has yellow eyes in the NM movie version. I guess you were not the only one who thought Alice's vision should have been Edward and Bella and not the way it is. How ironic to our conversation?
You know, I didn't think about that until you said that. I wonder if Stephenie had a problem with that. Bella turns around to look (or leer) at Edward with her yellow eyes. Too much positive information there for Edward to process. I had envisioned from the book that Alice was showing basically the same image to Aro that she had received before, her and Bella with their arms around each other.

And Edward would have seen that vision himself from the movie.

Edward would likely have thought, "Gosh, those are such terrible, drab clothes we are wearing, something BAD must have happened. OH MY GOD, something must have happened to Alice, she would never let us run in the forest in those outfits. And Bella probably isn't leering at ME, she's probably leering at Carlisle, or Jasper, or Emmett, or someone else behind me I can't see. And if she is leering at ME, that means she's become a sex fiend and I have no more quiet time, no more "me" time. Gosh, this is BAD, really BAD."
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:53 pm

Yes, corona, I'm sure that was just what Edward was thinking! ;)

Just imagine what Alice herself was thinking with that vision:

"Oh my gosh, what IS Bella wearing?????? And Edward too! Do they get kidnapped by a time traveller and go back into Austen's time? That's ridiculous! Or will those clothes come back into fashion? I can't allow that! I'll have to stock a complete wardrobe for Bella before she becomes a vampire to make sure she doesn't put on any of those clothes!"
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Re: Explorations

Post by smitten_by_twilight » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:49 pm

Here is what I imagine Edward and Alice to be thinking:

"Those clothes are horrible! Alice would never let us wear something like that! Something must be very bad ... Oh no ... Steph will let the fanfic writers take over our storyline! Nuclear winter is coming! The fashion industry will collapse!"

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Re: Explorations

Post by GrayceM » Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:30 pm

I don't think that Jacob loves Bella in the beginning but he's interested and more than willing to get to know her. I do believe he grows to love her, though not with the feelings Edward has for her and not necessarily the wrong way. But when Eclipse begins, Bella has put him in a bad position. She's not sure what to do with the "unresolved" character in her story. Though we are seeing them through Bella's POV, the other characters in the story are not sitting still until Bella "gets back to them". They are feeling things and going about their own lives.
Throughout NM, Jacob being led by Bella's behavior, believes he has a chance (even though she tells him that it wouldn't be fair to him). He still has that "knight in shining armor" syndrome where he's rushing in to save her from her depression, bring her back to life, so to speak. He thinks that she was so hurt by Edward leaving that if he came back it would not have any affect on her because now Jacob is in her life. In this way, he's thinking and acting human.
If Edward were human, leaving and hurting Bella like he did should have been enough for her to have nothing more to do with him. It's only because he's not human and his love for her transcends mere mortal existence that we (and Bella) forgive him for leaving.
I think Jacob honestly believes that if he had 6 more months without Edward there, it wouldn't have made a difference if he came back or not. What he doesn't see is that the reason Bella goes to him to begin with is to do something dangerous so she can hear Edward's voice. He's never given that information. He believes that it's just because Bella wants to spend time with him. Even by the end of NM and when Eclipse begins, he still does not look at the situation as an immortal. He still only sees how he wants things to be and he's hurt so much because he never thought Bella would go back to Edward. :shock:

I think that's partly why he has such a difficult time believing that the Cullen's aren't monsters. In the BD movie, he acknowledges that they are "really a family" and would do anything for Bella. I think this is really the first time he sees them as something other than vampires. He believes up until that point that when Bella is changed, she really won't be the person he knows. Maybe the zombie, soulless creatures with no conscience, but not the Bella he knows.

There are parts of the book, where he's thinking that it would be difficult for him to kill Carlisle because he's so likeable and human. He hopes that he can take out as many as possible, but truly hopes he would be dead before he had to deal with Esme and Carlisle. When he goes to the house first and he's planning to kill them, he's assuming that Bella is already dead. Well, turned, which to him is the same thing. He doesn't stop to consider that if Bella had already been turned, she would have to stand against him. This is him thinking and acting on instinct. Pardon the anaolgy but he's acting like a dog. Dogs don't think ahead. They live for the moment and do what is in their nature. For the wolves, it is their nature to kill vampires. Their emotions is what initiates the change to begin with and they are ruled by that volatile nature. Once he starts to see the Cullen's in a different way, maybe even that they retain some of their humanity, he starts to mature into the tribe leader he was supposed to be and becomes a true friend to Bella.

I don't so much believe that Jacob loved her the "wrong way" except he doesn't have anything to compare it to. I think he only knows, if it was "right", it wouldn't hurt everyone involved.
I may have read the post wrong but I think I had it turned around in my head. To me, Jacob is more possessive and Edward more obsessed or rather consumed by Bella. Jacob: I won't let you become one of them. Edward: You are my life now. Jacob thinks of her as his. Edward, from the beginning and with the exception of leaving in NM, makes everything about her. She is Edward's "reason for existing" where she is just the girl that Jacob loves. To me, it's just not even close.

I think what's confusing me is that the movie shows them one way but the story and the books show them opposite. :? In the movie, Edward is the possessive, jealous boyfriend that doesn't care that Bella and Jacob are best friends and she wouldn't have survived without him being there after Edward left. In the movie, Jacob is more considerate. Though he still fully expects that Bella will end up with him, he acknowledges that their relationship never really left the ground.
In the book, Edward would do anything for Bella. He would and does give her anything she wants one way or the other. He did not want to continue existing after she was gone. Jacob is more callous and unforgiving. Edward forgave even what I would consider "cheating" because he blames himself. "I can't blame either of you for something I made necessary. I may find forgiveness, but that doesn't let me escape the consequences."

As far as Alice's vision of Bella goes, I always had it in my mind that it was of flashes of pictures. Edward and Bella in the meadow, both sparkling. In reading that book that will not be, I know that there were a lot of different visions since there were so many way things could have gone. But I watched the first movie before I read the books, so I sort of got that Alice was seeing her and Bella together. She says, "Bella and I are going to be great friends".

I believe they only did that vision for Aro because of the books and the readers. But here's my dilemma with the whole vision Alice had that saved them in NM. Aro can read every thought they've ever had, right? So wouldn't he know that Alice's visions were subject to change if someone changed their mind? Alice could decide today and then change her mind tomorrow...Wouldn't it then make sense that her vision was to see that Bella has been changed because it was going to happen regardless of who or how? All we needed was to see Bella in the sun, golden eyed and sparkling to know.
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:23 pm

Just a couple of points I'd like to make.
GrayceM wrote:If Edward were human, leaving and hurting Bella like he did should have been enough for her to have nothing more to do with him. It's only because he's not human and his love for her transcends mere mortal existence that we (and Bella) forgive him for leaving.
Do you really think that she (and every one of us) would not forgive him if he was human if he had a noble (if misguided) reason for going away (i.e. to save her from something)? I would, and I think Bella would, too. If it was done in arrogance, and he came back just because he'd got bored with his distractions and wanted something else to entertain him, that would be different, but then, he wouldn't be Edward. If he had gone away, even as a human, out of some desperate need to save her from something, I would forgive him, and there's no doubt in my mind that Bella would, too.
GrayceM wrote:I think that's partly why he has such a difficult time believing that the Cullen's aren't monsters. In the BD movie, he acknowledges that they are "really a family" and would do anything for Bella. I think this is really the first time he sees them as something other than vampires. He believes up until that point that when Bella is changed, she really won't be the person he knows. Maybe the zombie, soulless creatures with no conscience, but not the Bella he knows.
Although I've always thought it willful ignorance on his part. After all, he knows Bella very well, but he doesn't think she is able to discern the difference between a zombie-like creature and someone that she can have a relationship with? He's seen and heard enough from Edward, certainly by the tent scene in Eclipse, to know that he is not just a zombie-like creature. Certainly, he still believes Edward is evil, but that is more related, I think for most of Eclipse, to the jealousy aspect than anything else. He has to hold onto that prejudice if he is going to think he is justified in doing anything to save Bella from him, even if it means hurting her beyond belief.
GrayceM wrote:This is him thinking and acting on instinct. Pardon the anaolgy but he's acting like a dog. Dogs don't think ahead. They live for the moment and do what is in their nature. For the wolves, it is their nature to kill vampires. Their emotions is what initiates the change to begin with and they are ruled by that volatile nature.
If that's the case (and I don't think it is) then I think they would be more of a monster than the Cullens, as killing without thought is, in my mind, what makes a monster. They are still humans (as Jacob so often states when trying to convince Bella that he's better for her than Edward) and can reason and apply this reasoning to their werewolf selves. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't be able to read each other's thoughts as wolves, as they wouldn't have any thoughts when they were wolves.
GrayceM wrote:I may have read the post wrong but I think I had it turned around in my head. To me, Jacob is more possessive and Edward more obsessed or rather consumed by Bella. Jacob: I won't let you become one of them. Edward: You are my life now. Jacob thinks of her as his. Edward, from the beginning and with the exception of leaving in NM, makes everything about her. She is Edward's "reason for existing" where she is just the girl that Jacob loves. To me, it's just not even close.
Absolutely. Edited to add that Edward's leaving was about her, too. He was just wrong about what was best for her.
GrayceM wrote:I think what's confusing me is that the movie shows them one way but the story and the books show them opposite. :? In the movie, Edward is the possessive, jealous boyfriend that doesn't care that Bella and Jacob are best friends and she wouldn't have survived without him being there after Edward left. In the movie, Jacob is more considerate. Though he still fully expects that Bella will end up with him, he acknowledges that their relationship never really left the ground.
In the book, Edward would do anything for Bella. He would and does give her anything she wants one way or the other. He did not want to continue existing after she was gone. Jacob is more callous and unforgiving. Edward forgave even what I would consider "cheating" because he blames himself. "I can't blame either of you for something I made necessary. I may find forgiveness, but that doesn't let me escape the consequences."
Edward does do that in the movie, too, although they cut most of it out. Yes, the Eclipse movie was a major stuff up in every sense, as far as I'm concerned. Someone unfamiliar with the saga could be forgiven, on seeing that movie, for thinking that Bella was going to end up with Jake!
GrayceM wrote:I believe they only did that vision for Aro because of the books and the readers. But here's my dilemma with the whole vision Alice had that saved them in NM. Aro can read every thought they've ever had, right? So wouldn't he know that Alice's visions were subject to change if someone changed their mind? Alice could decide today and then change her mind tomorrow...Wouldn't it then make sense that her vision was to see that Bella has been changed because it was going to happen regardless of who or how? All we needed was to see Bella in the sun, golden eyed and sparkling to know.
Yes, but it's clear from the books that Alice's visions can still change up until the time that they happen, no matter how far ahead she is seeing. As she says herself in Eclipse, when talking to Bella about Jacob, "If you changed your mind then what I was seeing would change ... or, in your case, disappear." She knows that Bella still could change her mind, and that if she did, what she was seeing would change. She knows Bella has not changed her mind because she still sees her becoming a vampire. So it is still subject to change if someone changes their mind.
I think Aro accepted it, in spite of the possibility for change, because he could see that Alice was sincere about doing it. Also, checking up that it had been done would give him an excuse to go and see the Cullens, and, if it hadn't been done, the excuse he needed to take them all down. That may have been another motivation.
Last edited by Tornado on Fri Feb 03, 2012 3:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Explorations

Post by corona » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:47 pm

Tornado wrote:I think Aro accepted it, in spite of the possibility for change, because he could see that Alice was sincere about doing it. Also, checking up that it had been done would give him an excuse to go and see the Cullens, and, if it hadn't been done, the excuse he needed to take them all down. That may have been another motivation.
My own personal opinon as well. It was going to be a win/win for him. Edward might be in denial, but Aro could have seen that the odds that Bella was going to be changed was a lot higher than Edward was willing to admit. I personally think he figured the best odds was that Bella was going to reject the Cullen lifestyle and want human blood, and I can't blame him, I would have gone with those odds as well if I had been in his shoes. Otherwise, yeah, all of the Cullens would have been on the chopping block, and he could take his pick which ones he wanted to keep. Win/win. And then he could have turned Bella himself if he was still curious about how she would turn out.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Explorations

Post by GrayceM » Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:32 am

Tornado wrote:Just a couple of points I'd like to make.
Do you really think that she (and every one of us) would not forgive him if he was human if he had a noble (if misguided) reason for going away (i.e. to save her from something)? I would, and I think Bella would, too. If it was done in arrogance, and he came back just because he'd got bored with his distractions and wanted something else to entertain him, that would be different, but then, he wouldn't be Edward. If he had gone away, even as a human, out of some desperate need to save her from something, I would forgive him, and there's no doubt in my mind that Bella would, too.
Not at all. I sometimes don't type things the same way they are running through my head. I guess I need to learn shorthand. :blush: Anyway, I was meaning that to Jacob's way of thinking this should have been enough. I would absolutely have forgiven Edward for almost anything he did, except maybe for killing Charlie. Charlie is my hero ;)
Edward is her dark angel...her god diamond cut from marble. He's her other half and they were destined to be together. The only way that could happen was for Edward to be a vampire so that he could live over 100 years waiting for her. To use Stephenie's (Bella's) analogy, I wouldn't have forgiven Romeo if he had just left Juliet instead of being banished. But I believe the love Edward has for Bella goes far beyond anything that Romeo could have experienced. Romeo was just a human teenager.
Okay, so maybe if he were human we would still have forgiven him, but it would have taken much more convincing for me to believe he was sincere.
You're statement of "If it was done in arrogance, and he came back just because he'd got bored with his distractions and wanted something else to entertain him, that would be different, but then, he wouldn't be Edward." That's closer to what I think. It wouldn't be the same story if Edward were human and didn't love Bella the way we know he does.
So to Jacob, if Edward caused Bella so much pain, she shouldn't want to accept him back. She has Jacob there now and he thought she was starting to recover... We, of course, know differently, but he never got to see that part of it. Remember that when he was getting to know her it was before he changed and knew all the secrets. He still thought everyone was human and that Edward was just another boy. With the exception of Sam and Emily, after he joined the pack, he'd never experienced anything so consuming. And then I don't think he believed that Bella could possibly feel that strongly about Edward because she was just a human. In fact, until he imprints, I don't think he understands just how strong that feeling is.
Tornado wrote:Although I've always thought it willful ignorance on his part. After all, he knows Bella very well, but he doesn't think she is able to discern the difference between a zombie-like creature and someone that she can have a relationship with? He's seen and heard enough from Edward, certainly by the tent scene in Eclipse, to know that he is not just a zombie-like creature. Certainly, he still believes Edward is evil, but that is more related, I think for most of Eclipse, to the jealousy aspect than anything else. He has to hold onto that prejudice if he is going to think he is justified in doing anything to save Bella from him, even if it means hurting her beyond belief.
"Willful ignorance", what a great description! :D Jacob flips back and forth. At the same time he's trying to convince Bella that Edward isn't human, he's trying to convince himself to remember that also. He doesn't want to see them as anything more than the monsters he thought they were, but by BD, he's seeing even more evidence and he's realizing that it's useless to keep denying it. You're right, his jealously has more to do with it than anything. His jealously is what keeps him from just accepting that fact without question the way Seth did.
Tornado wrote: If that's the case (and I don't think it is) then I think they would be more of a monster than the Cullens, as killing without thought is, in my mind, what makes a monster. They are still humans (as Jacob so often states when trying to convince Bella that he's better for her than Edward) and can reason and apply this reasoning to their werewolf selves. If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't be able to read each other's thoughts as wolves, as they wouldn't have any thoughts when they were wolves.
I am not certain that's entirely true either. They weren't killing without thought, they were killing vampires, not humans. They admit that at first they have to work not to change in a quick instance of anger. They have to be careful not to hurt those around them and until they learn to control it, the change is ruled entirely by their emotions. What they feel is out there for everyone to see. That what makes them seem more instinctual at least for me.
Tornado wrote:Yes, but it's clear from the books that Alice's visions can still change up until the time that they happen, no matter how far ahead she is seeing. As she says herself in Eclipse, when talking to Bella about Jacob, "If you changed your mind then what I was seeing would change ... or, in your case, disappear." She knows that Bella still could change her mind, and that if she did, what she was seeing would change. She knows Bella has not changed her mind because she still sees her becoming a vampire. So it is still subject to change if someone changes their mind.
I think Aro accepted it, in spite of the possibility for change, because he could see that Alice was sincere about doing it. Also, checking up that it had been done would give him an excuse to go and see the Cullens, and, if it hadn't been done, the excuse he needed to take them all down. That may have been another motivation.
I was referring to a previous discussion that had some questioning why that particular vision is the one that Aro saw instead of the vision being of Alice and Bella. Those of us who have read the books know that scene resembles the first hunt, (with Bella having red eyes :roll: ...)but for anyone that hadn't read the books, and for Aro, it could have simply shown Bella in the sun. Aro seeing Bella and Edward together and happy I think gave him a little insight as to the circumstances. Not that he cares about their feelings for each other, but he thinks that because of their love, if he could convince one of them to join he could easily get the other. I think you're right though. Had it not been for Irina, Aro probably would have used this as a reason for a visit.

Yes, Alice's vision could still change but, with the exception of when Edward was still deciding if he could control himself, she's never wavered very far from the vision of Bella as a vampire. She never sees an 80 year old Bella with a 17 year old Edward at her side. Which makes me think that it was going to happen one way or another and the only reason it kept changing was because of when and how it would happen.
This also makes me wonder what visions she saw while they were gone in NM....I know that Edward told her not to look for Bella's future and that while Bella was with the wolves she couldn't see her, but wouldn't you think she would have gotten flashes of things just from being so close to Bella. Edward told Bella that he had already decided he was coming back because he had gone past being able to live without her. Wouldn't Alice have been able to see something from him...whether or not she was looking...
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Re: Explorations

Post by corona » Fri Feb 03, 2012 1:59 pm

GrayceM wrote:Okay, so maybe if he were human we would still have forgiven him, but it would have taken much more convincing for me to believe he was sincere.

You're statement of "If it was done in arrogance, and he came back just because he'd got bored with his distractions and wanted something else to entertain him, that would be different, but then, he wouldn't be Edward." That's closer to what I think. It wouldn't be the same story if Edward were human and didn't love Bella the way we know he does.
I've tried to think of a human analogy before, some kind of situation where Edward might be human and still do the things he did. I haven't been very successful. Edward's problem is his belief that his very nature is evil (something he can mitigate a bit through his lifestyle), and that he will be tempted at some point to change her, which he considers to be an absolute evil driven by his own selfishness. He goes to extremes because he knows where things are heading, and he knows the end result is going to be extreme.

It is difficult to try to find a human counterpart to what Edward does. We humans at least know we can turn towards the Good if we so desire. Edward believes the only good thing he can do is to turn away from the only good thing in his life. So its a motivation problem. Edward's motivations actually have a rational basis, but they don't translate well to humans. Even without Edward's utter self-loathing, he at least still has a reason.

I can understand and relate to why Edward did what he did. If a human did that, I can't think of a scenario where it wouldn't seem utterly pointless and stupid (and therefore unsympathetic, and therefore boring).
GrayceM wrote:Yes, Alice's vision could still change but, with the exception of when Edward was still deciding if he could control himself, she's never wavered very far from the vision of Bella as a vampire. She never sees an 80 year old Bella with a 17 year old Edward at her side. Which makes me think that it was going to happen one way or another and the only reason it kept changing was because of when and how it would happen.

This also makes me wonder what visions she saw while they were gone in NM....I know that Edward told her not to look for Bella's future and that while Bella was with the wolves she couldn't see her, but wouldn't you think she would have gotten flashes of things just from being so close to Bella. Edward told Bella that he had already decided he was coming back because he had gone past being able to live without her. Wouldn't Alice have been able to see something from him...whether or not she was looking...
Agreed about Alice's visions. No matter what she or Edward said, Aro could tell that they were actually incredibly reliable. With a little hindsight, you could say that Alice's visions were not only perfectly correct, they even predicted that Edward would fight them with all of his strength (the vision wavering) but still end up failing. In fact, the vision she gives Aro also shows that Edward is one whipped puppy, he just isn't accepting it yet.

BTW, I love Edward's "plan" about hiding Bella from the Volturi. It is just so wonderfully delusional. One of my favorite scenes is him pacing back and forth in Bella's room afterwards. I like that image of Edward thinking on his feet, trying to figure out his next move after being smacked down so many times in the past few days.

In NM, I agree there is a little bit of contradiction there. Alice was never looking, and yet her visions never wavered until the moment Bella jumped (as confirmed by SM). That would be assuming that Alice was relying on her earlier visons, or that if any visions did crop up, it was that particular one, a vision of what was going to happen, not what was happening now.

That's pushing it a bit. That's the story, though, and it does appear that Alice was really tuning things out. I mean, really, she didn't see Bella and Laurent (I know the wolves are close, but they did not decide to intervene until just before Laurent is about to attack. Bella doesn't blank out of Alice's vision of her jumping until Jacob decides to rescue her)? Nope. And I think Edward's indecisiveness about coming back would have started showing up in her visions, but it ended up coinciding with everything else involved in that cliff diving.

I have no idea exactly what metrics prompts the visions, but I think a decision at least has to start tilting one way. From SM's outtake of Rosalie's call to Edward, he was still in the middle of battling his desire to come back. He wasn't quite there yet, one moment considering the attractiveness and relief of returning, but then the other moment completely adamant that that was the wrong thing to do.

I have read some fanfics where Edward is practically reaching for the phone, ready to make a call to Forks or schedule a plan trip back, at the precise moment that Rosalie calls. Even in that situation, though, where a vision might begin to emerge, it would have been overridden by the much more concrete decision by Rosalie to inform Edward of Bella's "death".

P.S. I know this is so trivial, but sometimes its those little things that provide the most fun.

If I recall correctly, Alice's visions DO waver in TW when Edward is trying to resist speaking to Bella. They DO NOT waver again after that, even after Edward has left, due to SM's statements that Alice always believed they would get back together because her vision was so firm. It disappears when Bella jumps off the cliff. It reappears at some point, either dimly and intermittently on the way to Italy while everything is still iffy, or reemerging full blown when they appear before Aro.

If Rosalie hadn't called, I think (my opinon only) that Alice would have gotten her first clue when the original vision starts to reappear, and then she might have traced it back to see that Edward was finally on the verge of breaking.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

Tornado
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Re: Explorations

Post by Tornado » Fri Feb 03, 2012 5:00 pm

GrayceM wrote: I sometimes don't type things the same way they are running through my head. I guess I need to learn shorthand. :blush:
I thought that was an odd thing for you to say! :)
GrayceM wrote:Anyway, I was meaning that to Jacob's way of thinking this should have been enough. I would absolutely have forgiven Edward for almost anything he did, except maybe for killing Charlie. Charlie is my hero ;)
Don't worry, I think Edward wouldn't have forgiven himself if he'd killed Charlie either!
GrayceM wrote:Okay, so maybe if he were human we would still have forgiven him, but it would have taken much more convincing for me to believe he was sincere.
For me, it would have depended on his reasons for doing so. If he felt that her life would have been better without him and that he truly thought he was an evil in her life, and would possibly be responsible for her death, I could understand that, and there are human circumstances where that is possible.

Perhaps if he was schizophrenic. He can control it with medication, but sometimes the medication needs adjusting, and he's aware that he can become dangerous inbetween those times. He might thing it's too great a risk to let anyone in. He might kill or injure the woman he loves. I could understand someone running away in that situation.
GrayceM wrote:You're statement of "If it was done in arrogance, and he came back just because he'd got bored with his distractions and wanted something else to entertain him, that would be different, but then, he wouldn't be Edward." That's closer to what I think. It wouldn't be the same story if Edward were human and didn't love Bella the way we know he does.
So to Jacob, if Edward caused Bella so much pain, she shouldn't want to accept him back. She has Jacob there now and he thought she was starting to recover... We, of course, know differently, but he never got to see that part of it. Remember that when he was getting to know her it was before he changed and knew all the secrets. He still thought everyone was human and that Edward was just another boy. With the exception of Sam and Emily, after he joined the pack, he'd never experienced anything so consuming. And then I don't think he believed that Bella could possibly feel that strongly about Edward because she was just a human. In fact, until he imprints, I don't think he understands just how strong that feeling is.
Hm, I'm not sure even the imprinting would tell him how strong Edward and Bella's love is. After all, Edward isn't a werewolf who's imprinted on her. I would say he probably recognises that their love is quite strong, but probably doesn't think it's necessarily on par with what he feels, even though he acknowledged that they looked like Sam and Emily at one stage during BD.
GrayceM wrote:"Willful ignorance", what a great description! :D Jacob flips back and forth. At the same time he's trying to convince Bella that Edward isn't human, he's trying to convince himself to remember that also. He doesn't want to see them as anything more than the monsters he thought they were, but by BD, he's seeing even more evidence and he's realizing that it's useless to keep denying it. You're right, his jealously has more to do with it than anything. His jealously is what keeps him from just accepting that fact without question the way Seth did.
Absolutely. As he himself states, he can accept the apology from Carlisle that he didn't think to warn Edward and Bella about the possibility of her falling pregnant, but he can't accept Edward's ignorance of it, "probably because [he] wasn't ten shades jealous" when it came to Carlisle.
GrayceM wrote:I am not certain that's entirely true either. They weren't killing without thought, they were killing vampires, not humans. They admit that at first they have to work not to change in a quick instance of anger. They have to be careful not to hurt those around them and until they learn to control it, the change is ruled entirely by their emotions. What they feel is out there for everyone to see. That what makes them seem more instinctual at least for me.
I agree that they are not killing without thought. That was what I thought you were suggesting. Your post suggested that thought was not involved as much as instinct. And while their change initially is ruled by their emotions, later they are able to change at will, although they can still change due to a heightened emotional state. The change may be instinctual, but their behaviour once in that state is a combination of thought plus instinct.
GrayceM wrote:Yes, Alice's vision could still change but, with the exception of when Edward was still deciding if he could control himself, she's never wavered very far from the vision of Bella as a vampire. She never sees an 80 year old Bella with a 17 year old Edward at her side. Which makes me think that it was going to happen one way or another and the only reason it kept changing was because of when and how it would happen.
This also makes me wonder what visions she saw while they were gone in NM....I know that Edward told her not to look for Bella's future and that while Bella was with the wolves she couldn't see her, but wouldn't you think she would have gotten flashes of things just from being so close to Bella. Edward told Bella that he had already decided he was coming back because he had gone past being able to live without her. Wouldn't Alice have been able to see something from him...whether or not she was looking...
We do know that Alice does miss things. Edward says he is fighting it, so the flashes may have been too quick for her to catch, especially if he kept changing his mind. Also, the section on SM's page written from Rosalie's POV suggests that Alice never doubted that Edward would cave eventually, so she may well have seen him weakening, because she could still look at his future, even if she had promised not to look at Bella's.
corona wrote:In NM, I agree there is a little bit of contradiction there. Alice was never looking, and yet her visions never wavered until the moment Bella jumped (as confirmed by SM). That would be assuming that Alice was relying on her earlier visons, or that if any visions did crop up, it was that particular one, a vision of what was going to happen, not what was happening now.
Did she say that Alice saw the same thing? (Bella becoming a vampire) I thought she had just said that Alice saw that Edward would weaken, much as he had when originally trying to stay away from Bella in Twilight. Alice stopped seeing the visions of Bella's duel future then, but he did weaken and get together with Bella. she might have just assumed that the same thing would happen this time.
corona wrote:That's pushing it a bit. That's the story, though, and it does appear that Alice was really tuning things out. I mean, really, she didn't see Bella and Laurent (I know the wolves are close, but they did not decide to intervene until just before Laurent is about to attack. Bella doesn't blank out of Alice's vision of her jumping until Jacob decides to rescue her)? Nope. And I think Edward's indecisiveness about coming back would have started showing up in her visions, but it ended up coinciding with everything else involved in that cliff diving.
It's not impossible that she would miss it, especially if she isn't actively looking into Bella's future. We know she missed Edward wanting to kill Bella initially in Twilight. Also, it seems that the wolves had been tracking Laurent before he reached Bella, but were hesitant to kill him without proof he was the vampire who'd killed on their land because he was on Cullen territory and could be a friend of theirs. With the cliff jump, Jacob was further away, and didn't even realise what Bella was doing until he heard her scream on the way down. So he was not "involved" in the situation until after she had jumped.
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