Explorations (**BD2 Movie Spoilers!**)

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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Thu May 10, 2012 3:22 pm

Beautiful dog, Tornado, beautiful coloring, is that a golden retriever?

In the case of James, the logical argument is that Bella's method results in a best case where she is killed alone and a worst case where Renee is killed as well. The alternative is that Bella confides in Alice and Jasper, and the best case is Renee is saved and the worst case is she is killed. Cold spreadsheet logic says that she should have told the Cullens, but Bella is working on another type of balance sheet, she sees the death of her entirely innocent mother as being unacceptable and reasons that Renee's best shot is to give herself up.

We don't get that kind of analysis from Bella in the book, but that doesn't mean she didn't think it, it means SM decided not to write it that way. I always thought her immense relief that Renee was not actually there was a giveaway that she had actually considered he could have killed them both. Bella doesn't always tell us everything she is thinking, and sometimes SM held back because she wanted to surprise us, and sometimes (actually, most times) she wanted the focus on the drama. Hence the emotions are on display, but the analytics are often filtered out. A good example of that is B&E's reunion in NM where Edward says "Amazing, Carlisle was right". There isn't one whiff of a clue that Bella considers that an important insight until near the very end when she refutes Edward's stated belief that he is beyond all hope.

If Bella had truly suspected that James did not have her mother and still decided to evade Alice and Jasper, then I think there would be a better argument that Bella had a death wish. Bella fully expects, though, that her mother might be at the house since they may have to move back anyway, and Charlie might have already talked to Renee about Bella leaving. When Alice picks up the phone and confirms to Bella that it is her mother, it just cements her belief that her mother was really there. James plays his part very well, starts telling her what to say, and then focuses her on the goal of getting away from A&J, else her mother dies. I don't think that part about Alice picking up the phone first was mere chance, I think SM wanted her readers to know that James fooled Alice as well.

***********************

Now, I know this is a side issue, but I also have to say that Bella's perils in the series are rarely due solely to her own actions. The James incident is mostly Bella, but there is blame to go around. The fatal error belongs to the Cullens when they leave on a plane to Phoenix and are spotted by Victoria, pinpointing Bella's location for James. Alice knows that events likely pull Bella away from their control, but she doesn't get that suspicious when Bella suddenly wants an Egg McMuffin while waiting at the airport. Since the assumed scenario is that she is abducted, it is critical that an eye be kept on her at all times, but Jasper allows her out of his sight.

Bella is a little irrational at the end of EC, but at least she is honest about it with Edward. None of the Cullens or the wolf pack realize that the plan they put together ends in making the exact same mistake made with James, that Bella will be found wherever Edward goes.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Thu May 10, 2012 4:46 pm

Corona: he's a Cocker Spaniel.

I think you've made some excellent points about the Bella and James scenario, and about the parallel with the Victoria incident. You are right in saying that it would have been a death wish if Bella had gone even if she'd doubted that James had her mother. She did not - and saving her mother was her reason for going. Excellent reasoning.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Mon May 14, 2012 8:07 pm

Hello everyone. I hope everyone had a wonderful Mother’s Day yesterday and/or a wonderful regular day for those who don’t celebrate it.

Tornado ~ Cute puppy. Harry seems like he’s a Big Sweetie Pie.

Corona ~ I agree with your first three paragraphs of your last post. I’m only going to comment on your last two paragraphs. :D

corona wrote:Now, I know this is a side issue, but I also have to say that Bella's perils in the series are rarely due solely to her own actions. The James incident is mostly Bella, but there is blame to go around. The fatal error belongs to the Cullens when they leave on a plane to Phoenix and are spotted by Victoria, pinpointing Bella's location for James. Alice knows that events likely pull Bella away from their control, but she doesn't get that suspicious when Bella suddenly wants an Egg McMuffin while waiting at the airport. Since the assumed scenario is that she is abducted, it is critical that an eye be kept on her at all times, but Jasper allows her out of his sight.

Though, IMO, I think the fatal error goes even further back then the Cullens being caught getting on a plane by Victoria. It goes back to Edward’s love stricken 17yr old vampire mentality saying something like, “I’m breaking all the rules now, let the chips fall where they may”. ***dum, dum, duuuuum - sound effects came to mind when I read that*** I know naïve 17yr old Edward didn’t know how fatal those chips would be for Bella and everyone else, including himself, and to his credit I know most teenagers think they are the exception to the rules, but this was the pivotal point in the story. It was the beginning of giving life to the IRRATIONAL concept that having a human live so close to the vampire world and not be harmed would and could be feasible. Hence, the fatal chips coming out of Edward’s (now) irrational love-stricken mind spill all over Bella, himself and everyone else.

And oh yes, at least Edward does supply many painstakingly sincere apologies and regrets and even goes as far as trying to undo his actions in NM. However, the crazy Pandora’s box (or in hindsight, Edward’s vampire-mate-bond feelings/condition) has been opened and Edward literally can’t ignore his strong emotions any longer, though try as he might. Consequently, Edward convinces himself that his love for Bella will be sufficient to protect Bella from him. Which I guess, it kind of, sort of, makes sense, being that vampires who love their mate don’t kill them. However, IMO, that was a huge gamble to take with Bella’s life and especially when considering the fact that Bella was his “singer”. Further, regarding the potential threat from his family, well I’m guessing they had 40+ years without casualties, so I could see how Edward could come to the conclusion that they would be able to control themselves. Though, he probably should have took into account that being around students in school is one thing and bringing them home is another thing entirely.

Nevertheless, I give Edward a pass for his misjudgements. We all make mistakes. Especially, when we are young and in love. More importantly, Edward could not know in advance that not only he and his family were the potential threat to Bella but that other vampires would be too. Moreover, he did save Bella from the car accident after all. Even then, Edward’s subconscious love for Bella knew no bounds. His family’s anonymity and even his own weren’t a factor when it came to Bella’s safety, let alone her survival. Subsequently, I do understand if it were not for Edward, Bella’s safety would be a moot point. However, I just don’t think that should give Edward license to gamble the remainder of Bella’s life. Thankfully though, Edward and everyone else hit by the fatal chips are given a HEA in BD.

corona wrote:Bella is a little irrational at the end of EC, but at least she is honest about it with Edward. None of the Cullens or the wolf pack realize that the plan they put together ends in making the exact same mistake made with James, that Bella will be found wherever Edward goes.

Great catch on the similar mistakes committed by the Cullens in TW and EC. Though, I don’t think the wolves knew the exact details of how James found Bella in TW. However, I must admit, I didn’t notice the similarities between TW and EC before. I mean, I did know that wherever Edward is Bella will be also and vice versa. I just never noticed that was how James found Bella in TW too. Thank you for sharing. And now that you mention it, I notice another similarity between TW and EC. (Though mine is not as grand as yours.) When the actual facts were made known to Bella, Bella not only apologized in EC but in TW as well. She actually apologized twice in TW, once in her letter before she got to the ballet studio and again in hindsight at the hospital.
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Thu May 17, 2012 12:10 pm

Violet Sunlight wrote:Though, IMO, I think the fatal error goes even further back then the Cullens being caught getting on a plane by Victoria. It goes back to Edward’s love stricken 17yr old vampire mentality saying something like, “I’m breaking all the rules now, let the chips fall where they may”.


You are exactly right, that is the fateful scene, VS, and one of my favorites, I missed not seeing that lunchroom discussion in the movie.

As long as we are delving into original causes though, let's go back all the way. For the official TW series, that is pretty much it, but then we have the "unofficial" Midnight Sun to fill a few things in. Specifically, chapter 4 (I think), the evening of the van incident, with everyone sitting around the living room table. Obviously, I can't get very detailed. There is another chapter too that occurs right before letting those chips start falling that was crucial.

If we take MS as part of the canon (and I think we should), then Edward's family didn't really support him. Edward wanted to do one thing, but was outvoted. History repeated itself at the end of New Moon, this time with Bella there, and the subject actually hadn't changed.

Reading MS, I'd have to say that both Alice and Jasper had major roles in driving Edward to the point where breaking the rules became inevitable, and both of them knew that. There was certainly some general sympathy for Edward's position, but nothing that ever indicated any of his family members were concerned about how Edward viewed the two fates of Bella in Alice's vision. I don't see that as SM presenting the Cullens as callous, but I do see her showing that Edward was not totally to blame, that events are conspiring against him.

Even the event that finally completely breaks him doesn't put all blame on his shoulders. He was considering leaving again, now that the immediate danger to his family had passed. Bella played a huge role in keeping him close then, just as she kept him close after the van incident, and both times unwittingly. The first time she kept the Cullens in Forks for the simple reason that Bella kept her mouth shut. One whispered question to Angela would have destroyed any possibility, but Bella keeps what happened secret, something just between her and Edward. I'm not sure she would have been so circumspect if Mike had done the saving. And the second time she sends Edward a subconscious message before the chips start falling, well, it was pretty devastating.

Yeah, Edward has all of the responsibility and accountability, but it seems everything, everyone, every event is just going to drive him and Bella together.

***********************

BTW, I don't mean to appear as if I'm coming down hard on the Cullens. Sometimes they were used simply to drive the plot, though, and when you do that strange things can pop up when you start digging and scratching around. If you try to pinpoint the full measure of Edward's responsibility, then you have to examine in detail everything, and some things are not meant to be weighed and measured. BUT, there just doesn't seem to be any evidence in MS or TW that anyone actually empathized with Edward regarding his views concerning Bella's future. No one says, "You know, Edward really doesn't want either of these outcomes, and he really wants to leave so that can be avoided, so maybe we ought to at least consider what he wants". At least, no one considers that until it is too late.

Violet Sunlight wrote:His family’s anonymity and even his own weren’t a factor when it came to Bella’s safety, let alone her survival. Subsequently, I do understand if it were not for Edward, Bella’s safety would be a moot point. However, I just don’t think that should give Edward license to gamble the remainder of Bella’s life.


Edward would agree with that. Then again, he always takes full responsibility upon himself, he always blames himself fully for whatever happens. However, his family knew full well the stakes that were on table. Edward wanted to fold his hand and leave, and his family wouldn't let him do that.

I'm going to have to laugh here, though. Putting myself into, say, Emmett's skin, I think I wouldn't have empathy either. Edward's issues are his alone, no one else shares them. The fact that Edward is tortured that he has finally found his mate and that she's human wouldn't mean diddly with me. Everyone has put up with his moping around for decades now, it's obvious he needs a little "adjustment". No matter how much you love your virginal kid brother, having him tell you all the time to "stop thinking those things" would get annoying fast. Knowing he would be even worse if he left would be intolerable. Edward's HEA is actually everyone's HEA.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Thu May 17, 2012 5:04 pm

corona wrote:Edward's HEA is actually everyone's HEA.


Ouch! That's a little cruel, corona! But I do understand what you mean.
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Fri May 18, 2012 10:54 am

Hah! Seriously, Tornado, I'm not trying to be cruel at all, just blunt.

I take MS at face value and view what happened there as simply moving the plot. Just as Jacob is introduced to give Bella that vital clue when they are on the beach, the Cullens are used to provide drama, arguments for Edward to stay, and the introduction of Alice's vision. Both are needed to entrap Edward in events. Jacob provides the necessary info to Bella that takes their relationship to the next level. The Cullens are needed to demonstrate that Edward WAS in fact aware of the dangers and wanted to avoid them. That was the primary point I wanted to make. Just as SM couldn't see Edward telling Bella what his nature was (insert Jacob), she couldn't see Edward not attempting at some point to avoid the danger he knew was coming (insert the Cullens).
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Tornado » Fri May 18, 2012 5:33 pm

Very good points. But you are right about Edward being his own worst enemy, and a bit miserable at times. I've just written my first Twilight fan fiction, from Edward's POV while Bella was transforming, and boy, is he mopey! And I didn't go out of my way to make him that way, it just seemed to me that he would be. I guess he's got a good reason at that point,though. He's not sure if his wife is going to recover. But he also has Alice around most of the time, and she surely would have been constantly seeing Bella surviving. But would he believe that outright? I think he'd be reluctant to, because he can't believe in any good thing for himself.
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Re: Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Sat May 19, 2012 12:43 am

corona wrote: As long as we are delving into original causes though, let's go back all the way. For the official TW series, that is pretty much it, but then we have the "unofficial" Midnight Sun to fill a few things in. Specifically, chapter 4 (I think), the evening of the van incident, with everyone sitting around the living room table. Obviously, I can't get very detailed. There is another chapter too that occurs right before letting those chips start falling that was crucial.

Agreed.


corona wrote: If we take MS as part of the canon (and I think we should), then Edward's family didn't really support him. Edward wanted to do one thing, but was outvoted. History repeated itself at the end of New Moon, this time with Bella there, and the subject actually hadn't changed.

:clap: Great catch again. I must admit again, I did not see the similarities between MS and NM. :blush: My sincerest thanks again. And I agree with what you said in this paragraph.


corona wrote: Reading MS, I'd have to say that both Alice and Jasper had major roles in driving Edward to the point where breaking the rules became inevitable, and both of them knew that. There was certainly some general sympathy for Edward's position, but nothing that ever indicated any of his family members were concerned about how Edward viewed the two fates of Bella in Alice's vision. I don't see that as SM presenting the Cullens as callous, but I do see her showing that Edward was not totally to blame, that events are conspiring against him.

Well, being that Edward had started an irrational trend (befriending his “singer” and then risking the family’s anonymity by saving her in public), I could see how the Cullens would dismiss Edward’s views. At this point of the story, the boy was not making too much sense anyway.

Also, I think Edward’s personal vampire-conditions were conspiring against him. The monster within found his human “singer” and his vampire-mate-bond found his mate. Too bad for Edward they were both one in the same. Furthermore, as if things weren’t complicated enough for Edward, both of his conditions not only affected him, but the family as well. Unfortunately, neither one of his conditions operated RATIONALLY. We learn from NM that Edward’s desires and plans are a moot point because the vampire-mate-bond is working off another ledger. My point is, in the end the vampire-mate-bond gets what it wants, regardless, of the individual’s beliefs or rare circumstances. It reminds me of the power of the imprinting, in that, there is NO choice for the supernatural individual only for the human.


corona wrote: BUT, there just doesn't seem to be any evidence in MS or TW that anyone actually empathized with Edward regarding his views concerning Bella's future. No one says, "You know, Edward really doesn't want either of these outcomes, and he really wants to leave so that can be avoided, so maybe we ought to at least consider what he wants". At least, no one considers that until it is too late.


You are right. But, why would the family show Edward empathy when he showed them none? Albeit, while doing the right thing.

I wasn't sure if these two sentences would be considered a Midnight Sun reference so, just to be safe, I used the invisible ink thing:
Further, though it is not said out loud, I personally think all the Cullen kids at that table had one thing in common, they were all thinking of the safety and survival of their respective mates (in their own ways). Carlisle and Esme, I personally believe, were thinking of the family as a whole, but I feel they were thinking about each other’s welfare a tiny bit as well.

Lastly, I know Edward is fully aware of the stakes, he is just compelled to pursue Bella against his better judgment, thanks to his vampire-mate-bond. (I thought I throw a little gist from Pride & Prejudice in there, I feel it best describes my view :D ).
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Re: Explorations

Postby corona » Wed May 23, 2012 4:51 pm

Violet Sunlight wrote:You are right. But, why would the family show Edward empathy when he showed them none? Albeit, while doing the right thing.


I can hazard a guess. They likely assume (correctly) that Bella is going to love him back, and that she'll be the one to ask to be changed. None of them view what appears to be happening as a tragedy. What they don't expect is to be correct on each count, but Edward still rejecting the final outcome as unacceptable.

Edward doesn't see Bella falling in love with him, so he can only view changing her as the ultimate act of selfishness with him alone getting the benefit. Edward is blind to other possibilities, and I don't think the Cullens are aware of just how clueless he really is.

Violet Sunlight wrote:...I personally think all the Cullen kids at that table had one thing in common...


Yes, literally ALL of them. Alice is sympathetic and supportive, but it took me a few readings to see that she was manipulative as well there at the end, especially in regards to Jasper's frame of mind (at least, that's how I interpret it).

P.S. I mean "manipulative" in a good way. :)
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”
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Re: Explorations

Postby Violet Sunlight » Fri May 25, 2012 7:30 pm

Hello everyone. :wave:

***Midnight Sun references in this post***.

corona ~ While I agree with what you said in your last post, the point I am making is when it comes to the safety of everyone’s respective mates, everyone else’s considerations become irrelevant, regardless of how just those considerations may be. With that being said, if Edward has to risk his family’s (and his) anonymity to save his mate Bella, then I for one totally understand his predisposition. As well as, if the Cullens, consequently IN TURN, have to disregard Edward’s wishes and views, at the dining room table in MS, to protect their respective mates, then so be it too. Nevertheless, I do realize none of them wanted to cause each other complications and everyone was basically just doing what they were obligated to do, starting with Edward. In fact, a few hours before the car accident occurred Carlisle was giving his blessing for Edward to leave. Inevitably though, the car accident happened next and the Cullens had to, IMO, reasonably resort to insisting that Edward stay in Forks so that he could warn them if their anonymity had or would be jeopardized.

Although, after Alice’s vision was revealed to them all, and as you say, the Cullens assumed (correctly) that Bella would love Edward in return, I don’t believe the Cullens were asking Edward to start a romantic relationship with Bella. The actual start of that relationship was ALL Edward’s doing. I am assuming the Cullens wanted Edward to continue his and their façade as they were doing before the incident of the car accident occurred. Though, Alice had her additional ulterior motive for wanting Edward to stay so she could inevitably be acquainted with her would-be best-friend, but I think that was just a potential bonus for Alice (and I say potential because we all know Alice's visions are subjective), not the main reason. Also, I do agree with you that the Cullens did not see Edward’s painful odd predicament as a tragedy, though they did sympathize and saw it as Edward’s painful HEA or potential painful HEA.
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