Worried about Breaking Dawn?

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Emmettroselover
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Emmettroselover » Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:41 pm

As a writer as well, I understand what Tornado is saying. It is difficult to write a love scene if you do not intend of making it as juicy as the reader wants. However, that is also why you should not hype up something you do not plan to follow through with. The sex talks, the compromising, the obsessing in Bella's mind, all of these things led up to their honeymoon and it was such a huge buildup that it was very disappointing as a reader to not get that part of their relationship like we had with every other part, especially since sex was such a big topic for them as a couple. Since we were in Bella's mind, she could have described the way she was feeling through it, how being with Edward in such a way made her feel, and gone into more detail, without getting graphic. I have actually seen that done in other stories and it works pretty well. The reader feels like they are getting that intimate moment without it being too much. The fade to black certainly is something that plenty of readers did not enjoy.

I understood that she wanted to keep it toned down because of her beliefs and other factors, but that is why you should not tease with something like that if you do not plan to give the reader what they want. Then too, it would not be the last time she would build up something without following through. Even if her intentions were noble or even logical in her mind, it does not change that readers were going to be disappointed after such intense build ups that ended up not being shown or going anywhere.

As for the imprinting between Quil and Claire, I could see that going either way. I could see them mentioning it to ease the bomb about Jacob's imprint, or I could see them keeping it out. Since we usually hear something anytime someone has been cast in the films, I find it hard to believe that there will be a flashback or a moment with Claire in the films since an actress has not been cast to play her...at least not that I have heard of that is. It could be something mentioned, but I doubt they will harp on it enough to create a flashback and it would still go back to the same issue that Lautner was talking about. How do you show an imprint? He said he had to ask the producers and SM several times how it should look because even he was hesitant about it when he read it in the books. I think that is something that is easier to explain in a book than to show visually.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Tornado » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:13 pm

I think the sex scene in the movie will be satisfyingly tasteful and go far enough for most of us, so I don't think we need to worry about that! I think you're right, Chernaudi. It's easier to write blood and gore with restraint than it is to write that type of sex scene, and it's easier to film a discreet sex scene than it is to film the blood and gore discreetly.

The part of Claire would be so minor I'm not sure it would be mentioned, especially since it is a child playing it, although I guess her parents would probably want everyone to know she was in BD, so maybe we won't have the flashback. I'm sure it will be mentioned, though. They have to set it up, if only to remind the audience that imprinting exists, and certainly to make them aware that imprinting on a child is possible. Savvy audience members (who haven't read the books) may well pick up what is going on when Bella becomes pregnant if they've had a foreshadowing of the event with it mentioned in an earlier scene.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by RebeccaCullen » Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:47 pm

Emmettroselover wrote:As a writer as well, I understand what Tornado is saying. It is difficult to write a love scene if you do not intend of making it as juicy as the reader wants. However, that is also why you should not hype up something you do not plan to follow through with. The sex talks, the compromising, the obsessing in Bella's mind, all of these things led up to their honeymoon and it was such a huge buildup that it was very disappointing as a reader to not get that part of their relationship like we had with every other part, especially since sex was such a big topic for them as a couple. Since we were in Bella's mind, she could have described the way she was feeling through it, how being with Edward in such a way made her feel, and gone into more detail, without getting graphic. I have actually seen that done in other stories and it works pretty well. The reader feels like they are getting that intimate moment without it being too much. The fade to black certainly is something that plenty of readers did not enjoy.

I understood that she wanted to keep it toned down because of her beliefs and other factors, but that is why you should not tease with something like that if you do not plan to give the reader what they want. Then too, it would not be the last time she would build up something without following through. Even if her intentions were noble or even logical in her mind, it does not change that readers were going to be disappointed after such intense build ups that ended up not being shown or going anywhere.
No mention of what they did to consumate their marriage or how Bella felt about it but a blood bath birth resulting in Bella's that doesn't conflict with her personal belief's, nice.

It's like the fight with the Volturi at the end of BD. All this build up and vampires introduced we don't know or care about and everyone walks away after Alice turns up with another half-breed that Umbridge would hate.


GrayceM wrote: I have to believe that Stephenie and the rest know what everyone thinks of the imprint thing by now...there were subtle and not so subtle hints during the interviews that even the cast thought it was a bit creepy. I'm hoping that they have pushed that fear and apprehension onto BC and MR to tone down or change the perspective by explaination or visual with another instance prior to that scene. Otherwise, there are going to be a lot of people walking out of this movie shaking their heads, wondering wth happened and what's the point of a second movie.
I remember reading or hearing that TL asked SM several times what imprinting was so he could attempt to protray it right, and she gave him the same cop out answers she gives in the guide. For something that's a big part of the last book, I never understood why SM never bothed to give a black and white answer to what imprinting was.
GrayceM wrote:The only way I see that they can have Bella and Jacob showing affection is if like in the books, Bella is glad to see him, but that whenever he is there, Edward is also. Holding onto her and taking care of her. And Jacob eventually asking her why she's so glad to see him since she's married. Or maybe the ever present Bella voice over..."I had always felt that Jacob should be part of my family, so I'd have some claim on him that didn't lead him on. So maybe the reason I'm so happy when he's around is that I don't have to lose everyone in my family at once." That would work with the story and fit in to shorten what they have to show.
I hope there are no scenes where Bella looks lovingly at Jacob while Edward cleans up her puke like Rob mentioned in the EW article.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:39 pm

RebeccaCullen wrote:It's like the fight with the Volturi at the end of BD. All this build up and vampires introduced we don't know or care about and everyone walks away after Alice turns up with another half-breed that Umbridge would hate.
IMO, the two biggest hurdles to jump in BD2. They have to somehow pull off the walk away at the end of the standoff and have it come off satisfying. And one of the more subtle problems they have are all of the red-eyed "good" vampires and trying to build some sort of connection with them. I can relate to the Cullens and I can relate to the Volturi. Somehow I could never relate to the red-eyed Cullen allies. They are killing mothers and fathers while they stay with the Cullens. I know that couldn't be avoided. Out of all of them, I liked the Romanians the best -- they are who they are.
RebeccaCullen wrote:I remember reading or hearing that TL asked SM several times what imprinting was so he could attempt to protray it right, and she gave him the same cop out answers she gives in the guide. For something that's a big part of the last book, I never understood why SM never bothed to give a black and white answer to what imprinting was.
Imprinting is a device used to establish romantic couples. That was no issue when dealing with adults. Once you put children into it, it became real complicated since you are no longer dealing with some mystic variation of love at first sight. Jacob is bonded to Nessie as protector until she flips that romantic switch. And SM strongly suggests that she will at some point, and then Jacob will go into romantic mode.

No one has a reference point for this, they will not know how to categorize this and put it into their knowledge box of experience. Every adult, though, does have a reference point for other adults that "fall in love" with children. We see their mug shots in the news every day, unfortunately. Humans have an extremely strong bias towards pattern recognition and categorization. If Taylor was confused, how is the audience going to react? This is the biggest reason why you don't want to keep full throttle on the love-triangle, it sets up the assumption by the audience that Jacob ends up transferring his love and desire for Bella to her child.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Chernaudi » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:37 pm

I think that they need to stick to the book as close as possible, but that's one problem with Stephanie's writing style. First off all, blood and gore during Nessie's birth and Bella damn near dying is fine, but a love scene between a husband and wife is a hot button issue? And non clear-cut black and white definition for imprinting won't help matters either.

And I agree with hyping things up and nothing much happening. But then again, who was Steph's inspiration for the end of BD? None other than William Shakespeare and his play the Merchant of Venice, which apparently had a similar ending. If the almighty Shakespeare can do it, maybe Stephanie thought that she could. I know that guys who wanna see action and violence won't much like the ending, but I'm not one of the action oriented guys, in spite of my desire to see or write a story where the Volturi are out in a field during World War II only to get strafed and carpet bombed by the USAAF and the RAF after US and British intelligence link them to strange goings on in the area that might threaten their men. That's not in the novel, so we have what we have. And oddly, I felt satisfied that the bag, bad, almighty Volturi had to concede defeat and walk away with their tails between their legs, and that they were thankful that no one has ever decided to test Aro's theories about humans being able to take on Vampires with things such as nuclear weapons or the like, which doubtlessly is what Aro was referring to.

I know that Bill and the cast seem confident about the movies, but with Summit and their powers that be, I can't make a call because Summit's track record means that they can't be reliably trusted to do what the fans in general want with their wishy-washiness in that regard.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Tornado » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:52 am

A "walk away" ending can be satisfying if the mental confrontation is done well, but the worry is, as Chernaudi says, that they might change it just because they think that's what the audience expects.

Rumour has it that they will have a battle, but that it won't be in "real time", if I can put it that way (I'm trying to remain vague to avoid spoilers for those who might not know about this). I don't know if this is true or not, but I worry that the Powers That Be are trying to have their cake and eat it too, and, in trying to please both sides, they will wind up pleasing neither. It is certainly a risk.

Just another thought on the imprinting. It has been mentioned quite a bit in interviews by all the leading actors (Rob putting it as bluntly as possible: "Jacob falls in love with the baby") but no one has started talking about it. So I think it's unlikely they're trying to play up the controversy. In fact, I think it has only been mentioned in the interviews fans are most likely to watch. So this may be a sign that they are nervous about it, so hopefully it is a sign of restraint where the imprinting is concerned. They may be worried about a backlash if it is made a feature of the film.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Emmettroselover » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:43 am

I think it goes back to what everyone on here as been saying lately. It is going to be tricky to pull off. Could they make the imprinting look tasteful when it was something that did not come off well for a lot of fans in the book? I am not sure. Summit has not done a good job with even the best parts of the books, so I do not know how to feel about them dealing with something that always gets fans talking, like the imprinting. I do hope they mention Quil and Claire just because, like Tornado said, it will foreshadow what is to come. I understand the semantics of imprinting like Corona mentioned, but it certainly becomes complicated when putting children into it. It is just hard wrapping your mind around something when you know the end result and how Jacob acted around Renesmee in the book. It was not just protective, but possessive. I do not think SM helped matters with her we can share comment. For someone trying to ease the blow of such a big moment, she did not help Jacob's character by making him say that or act more like the parent. I get what was trying to be explained but I think she did not do well with the clarifying that.

As for the non-battle, it could be done in a satisfying way, but this is Summit we are talking about. They do not have the best track record with these things so I am both worried and yet intrigued on how they will handle both subjects. My biggest concerns for BD have always been the imprinting and the non-battle, two things that irked me when I read the book, and since both could end up being a disaster if not handled well, I am still worried.

It definitely seems like in interviews, the cast is worried about the imprinting as well. Rob is constantly making jokes about it. Kristen tries to hide her smile at the thought of it and both Condon and Taylor have talked about trying to handle it tastefully. Poor Taylor said he still is not sure how that scene will look and I could see him walking up to SM and the producers and trying to get answers about the imprinting. Showing that will be hard and I understand his concern. How do you show an imprint? What is that supposed to look like without being awkward? I guess we will just have to wait and see.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Chernaudi » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:00 pm

As much as I hope that things work out, we don't know the exact details about what went on and those who do know haven't said anything specific so far, so that's troubling, though understandable.

There's so much potential for this to screw up if the powers that be take too many liberties or, possibly, if they don't take enough depending on your point of view.

But then again, as I do follow American (and other European and worldwide) motorsports, I do have to say that I didn't expect to see Brad Keselowski be a potential threat for the NASCAR Sprint Cup championship until the last few weeks. I did expect him to win races, but not make the Chase for the Cup. But since late May he's run well, and in the four races since he broke an ankle in a testing accident (for which he didn't sit out a race nor use a relief driver in the Cup series), he's finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd and won last night again. That gives him three wins on the season so far, he's moved from 22nd to 11th in points, and under the Chase system this year, those three wins basically lock him into a wild card sport for the run for the cup, and at the rate he's going, he may sacrifice the wild card in favor of getting locked in with a top 10 points position come Richmond in a couple of weeks. Brad's impressed the hell out of me the last couple of months.

Maybe that's giving me some hope that Summit will pull out all the stops to give us fans a great, if not good or at least decent movie. But I have more faith in Brad continuing his hot streak than Summit giving us something that's really exciting as far as being especially good with BD.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:35 pm

The problems lie in the source material. For imprinting, it's something that isn't exactly helped by providing more information. The Claire info provided in EC makes it pretty clear that the expectation is that she and Quil will become a couple. SM also makes it pretty clear in subsequent interviews that Jacob and Nessie become a couple. That one is going to be a hard sell.

As far as the end-game, most fans are glad that no one is killed (apart from Irina), but that doesn't make those final scenes particularly interesting. The "mental" game is mostly worked out by Alice beforehand, and then she leaves and provides only a summary at the very end. Most of the battle is a game of delay. A lot of it is simply trying to get through Caius's thick skull that Nessie isn't one of the immortal children. The rest includes speeches and Bella's shield.

Most of that mental game during the battle is actually played out in Aro's head, which we don't see. It reminds me of that chess game between Edward and Alice that Bella witnesses; a few pawns are moved and then Alice concedes. Not particularly riveting. That may have been one of the most fascinating chess games every played, but not exactly movie material. It would be much more interesting for Aro to "see" how his own strategy would unfold if he gave the order to attack. I don't think showing variations of doubt and concern crossing Aro's face is going to do it.

I'm not trying to mock the desire for a genuine canon end-game with not even an imagined battle, I'm just saying that doing so while keeping it interesting is extremely difficult.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Emmettroselover » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:58 pm

Great way to put it and I agree. It is certainly going to be a challenge.
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