Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Discussion of the Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn 1

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Emmettroselover » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:28 am

It irked me that Jacob wanted to be one of the decision makers. Even if Renesmee was his niece, his sister, etc, that would not be the case. The parents get to ultimately decide what is best for their child, even in a supernatural setting, so that is what bothered me. There definitely were not boundaries set and even though I was also creeped out by Quil and Claire, I do not think knowing what is coming somehow softens the blow of things. Knowing that this guy that seems to want to hover over your child and tell you what you can and cannot do with her will someday be her lover is just weird, supernatural world or not, and I wish SM would have made a disconnect between those two relationships. Jacob was not the daddy and there are some things that even in a supernatural setting were unrealistic. Edward and Bella were the parents even if they were vampires and I did not understand how Jacob felt bold enough to make his demands about Renesmee like he was somehow on their level.

It is just funny to me how it being a fantasy and not real is used as an excuse when it is convenient. We are all on a forum talking about these books and yet on certain topics it is dismissed as oh well it is not real. Yes, well we can use that excuse for every single thing that we talk about on here and not even have the discussions. If we can post on here and discuss these characters in such in depth ways, why not be able to take a look at the imprinting in such a way and question it is so controversial in the first place? The saga is a fantasy, but SM, like most writers, did a good job for the most part making the content believable. I think that is the best way to put it instead of realistic. It was believable that were was a world like this that she had created in her mind, but the imprinting on babies and how it was explained was not something easy to swallow and the backlash from so many fans shows that the way it was treated was not a way that made people come to accept it as believable even in this fantasy world.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Jacobs-girl » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:03 pm

Well said. I agree with you.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:09 pm

Emmettroselover wrote:Edward and Bella were the parents even if they were vampires and I did not understand how Jacob felt bold enough to make his demands about Renesmee like he was somehow on their level.
Jacob probably doesn't see it as being "bold". He operates at a very basic level. If it makes him feel good, then no one should have a problem. If it makes him feel bad, then everybody should feel bad.

Jacob looks at Bella and Edward as equals, so he never views them as parents. He will, hopefully, be set straight on that eventually. If they can't get through to him as a human, then they'll have to treat him like a dog, meting out corrections when he misbehaves and treats when he is good. If he cannot learn and comprehend respect, he will simply have to be trained.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Chernaudi » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:32 pm

Oddly ironic that you say that Corona, knowing what Jacob is in the supernatural world :)

However, with what Jacob demonstrated with how long it took him to let go of Bella, that might be what it takes--punishments from Bella and Edward to correct him and rewards and incentives to keep him on the right track.

I think that the imprinting could be better accepted by some fans if Jacob's involvement with Renesmee was toned down a bit and explained better, instead of him seeming to be as much of a father figure as her own father, Edward. Granted, Steph could've written more family moments with Edward in them, and it seems that could feature a bit in the movie based on some things that were discussed recently, and if so, I'd rate that as a change for the better. But in the book, Nessie seemed to spend the most time with Bella, then Jacob, and Edward being a distant third. Getting Edward more overtly involved could've gone some way to changing that in my opinion.

I do agree with ELR that Stephanie did do a good enough job with about 95% of things that if we didn't know any better, we could believe the canon of the story to possibly be real. But two points--the shape-shifters' changes being triggered after the Cullens leave and how the imprinting was explained in BD--her explanations do leave some to be desired and a clearer explanation could've helped.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Tornado » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:15 pm

Grayce, I think all the parents (apart from Embry's mum) know about the pack, but I think that's because they are connected to the tribal elders. I don't think Emily's parents know about it, so I don't think that Claire's are going to be told either. Not sure about that, that was just the impression I got.

Corona, I think that's the best explanation of Jacob's character I have ever read! That kid needs to see beyond himself.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Emmettroselover » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:19 pm

corona wrote: He operates at a very basic level. If it makes him feel good, then no one should have a problem. If it makes him feel bad, then everybody should feel bad.

Jacob looks at Bella and Edward as equals, so he never views them as parents. He will, hopefully, be set straight on that eventually. If they can't get through to him as a human, then they'll have to treat him like a dog, meting out corrections when he misbehaves and treats when he is good. If he cannot learn and comprehend respect, he will simply have to be trained.
That is so true and one of the best ways to explain how Jacob acts.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Chernaudi » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:22 pm

So we're suggesting that we train Jacob as if he was like a dog? Oddly fitting, considering what type of creature he is. Who would we elect to do this? Rosalie, maybe?

On a more serious note, I'd hope that Jacob would realize that he's not Nessie's father or sole "protector", and it's Bella and Edward's jobs to be the parents until Renesmee grows up, and then hopefully Jacob will understand that Nessie has the abilities to make her own choices.

As far as how some of this stuff gets handled in the movies, that's up to Summit, MR, BC, and the cast. Of course, with the imprinting being a bit of a plot hole on Stephanie's end (lack of a clear cut explanation of the details and such), it'll be interesting if her being on set may've helped, but it seemed that Taylor especially, and to an extent the rest of the cast, were still dumbfounded a bit and slightly creeped out by it.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:53 pm

The biggest immediate issue with the imprinting is the way it establishes romantic couples.

So far, only Sam has been identified as imprinting. One instance does not create a pattern.

Perhaps the movie may address it by only having Sam and Jacob imprint. That way you keep the whole nature of imprinting kind of murky and the audience can make the connection that this is happening only to the Alphas (oh, it's an Alpha thing). And maybe it would be better to have Sam present some of the information himself to the Cullens. I know that busts the canon quite a bit, but you do what you have to do.

That's just a thought. If I had to do any canon-bending in order to get over some humps, though, it would be done for this imprinting thing.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Tornado » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:44 pm

I still think they will need to introduce Claire to prepare the audience for the idea that the wolves can imprint on a young child. As far as the movie audience is concerned imprinting is about finding your romantic match. That's what happened with Sam and Emily. If this is all the information they have to go on, they will be completely unprepared for Jacob to imprint on a newborn, no matter how fast she's growing. They will need to do something to prepare the audience for this eventuality, or I think they will be even more creeped out by it because of the surprise.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Chernaudi » Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:57 pm

Of course, as I've argued before, the people viewing the movie can read the books or stuff online first, but I do know that with some people, that's asking too much unfortunately. Most critics and such didn't do their research for the films and mostly rip on them for their own lack of knowledge, which is their fault for not doing the foot work, and why I think that critics' opinions are like certain bodily organs--everybody has one--and matter little to fans, especially if their comments are shallow due to their obvious lack of knowledge or understanding of the subject matter.

It sort of reminds me of when Michael Sheen was on Top Gear and Jeremy Clarkson asked about New Moon. Jeremy--maybe partly for comic effect, but also maybe in part due to his own ignorance--acted completely dumbfounded when he asked Mike about the movie and the novels. And Jeremy has 3 teenage daughters who've read the books. Couldn't Clarkson have cheated and asked them about it?

It may've been for the comedic element of Top Gear under JC's leadership--TG is more of a docucomedy/infotainment show than an actual educational show. But it does show the dangers of trying to present something to an uninformed audience. That's the thing that Summit and everyone else has to weigh with this.
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