Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Discussion of the Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn 1

Moderators: December, cullengirl

Forum rules
Click for Forum Rules
User avatar
corona
Ignoring Renee's E-Mails
Posts: 715
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:37 pm
Location: Leah’s hideaway

Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:53 pm

Jacobs-girl, the issue with imprinting lies mainly with children, because this mechanism or feature that stalls romanticism between the couple is incomprehensible. It's something that fans simply have to accept, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It is not human nature for a child to grow up and then fall in love with the person they always looked to as their big brother.

Between adults, there is no real issue, the magic of imprinting as a substitute for love at first sight works OK, and the magic kind of goes both ways, the imprintee automatically reciprocates.

In my opinion, the description of imprinting as told by Jacob sure sounds a lot like love at first sight. If gravity moves, and nothing matters more than her, then what exactly is going on? Jacob then goes on to describe Quil and Claire's relationship eventually becoming like Sam and Emily's.

Note that Quil in BD states he doesn't really see any other girl anymore after the imprinting.

SM has said that Jacob will essentially become immortal as long as he keeps phasing, and that he and Nessie are both "good to go".

So it looks like imprinting is the way to establish romantic couples, but this causes a major problem when dealing with children. So SM inserts that additional delaying feature to make it acceptable, and Quil puts on dresses to show that Claire has total control. Does it work? Well I guess we'll find out.

This is why I don't think showing the other imprinting couples actually helps.

Taylor was confused.

Bella thought imprinting on a child was creepy in EC. In BD, she understands what is going to happen. Sure, Jacob doesn't think that way now, and he is even angry that Bella is thinking like that. But it does happen, just not right away, and SM confirms that in her interviews.

It is going to be a stretch to ask the audience to be even more understanding and accepting than the actual actors and the actual characters.

My bet is they are going to play up the "protector" side of things, but I could be wrong.

If Bill Condon pulls this off, I will have enormous respect for him.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

User avatar
RebeccaCullen
Hanging Up on Jessica
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:15 pm
Location: Surrey BC

Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by RebeccaCullen » Tue Sep 06, 2011 3:02 pm

The only scene I can remember from the books where Jacob was human that plays much importance was when Edward heard Renesmee for the first time and Jacob realized he was lost the final battle to save Bella's human life.

Personally, I think when Jacob ran away at the end of EC he should have stayed gone. If she had played it right, SM could have set it up so that there would be future books featuring Jacob and an older Renesmee finding each other and falling in love. By bringing him back and having him imprint on a newborn baby who hasn't even properly bonded with her dang parents, SM created a situation of epic creepy proportions because every imprint union we've seen so far has lead to romantic feelings between the two. Quil even said that he couldn't look at another girl after he imprinted, so what hope is there for Jacob to stay in the friend zone when Renesmee becomes older? And not only that, but the events of EC make the imprint on Renesmee look even creepier because SM had Jacob and Bella "fall in love" and it just looks like, and could be seen as by the general public, he's transferring his affections from Bella to her daughter by imprinting on her.
Image

Tornado
Member: LaPush Cliff Diving Team
Posts: 3609
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: The Land Down Under

Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Tornado » Tue Sep 06, 2011 5:12 pm

Rebecca, the difficulty there is that there is nothing to stop the Volturi dead in their tracks when they come to kill the Cullens. A group of vampires, no matter how big, would not have stopped them. They have Jane and Alec, and no way to know, when they first arrive, that Bella can stop them (she doesn't even know it at that point). The wolves were even there in Forever Dawn, and I believe that is why. SM needed something unexpected to stop the Volturi for a moment, or she knew, because of the nature of the Volturi, a fight would inevitably break out and people we love would die.

So she has to have the wolves fight with the Cullens. And why would they, when the Cullens are standing with plenty of "normal" vampires? It's their job to kill them. Unlike Eclipse, the wolves are not just fighting with vegetarians. So there has to be a force that binds them, and makes them stand with these vampires, in spite of the fact that they should be killing them instead. Nothing less than something like imprinting is going to make them do that.

I agree with Corona. The imprinting is described as the imprinter becoming whatever the imprintee needs, yes, but there is every suggestion in everything written about it that eventually it becomes about romance. By the nature of imprinting (in that it has to happen from the moment the imprinter sees the imprintee) sometimes this occurs when the imprintee is a child and is not ready for that kind of thing, so the relationship changes. But it is stated in several different articles (and in the books) that once the child grows up they will feel romantic feelings for the imprinter
Image

User avatar
RebeccaCullen
Hanging Up on Jessica
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:15 pm
Location: Surrey BC

Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by RebeccaCullen » Tue Sep 06, 2011 6:16 pm

My problem goes straight back to how I feel about Jacob, and how SM wrote him, particularly in EC and most of BD.

Forever Dawn didn't have NM and EC preceding them, and didn't have Jacob vying for Bella's affections or SM having Bella admit that she "loved" Jacob and wanted a future with him badly. Therein lies my problem with Jacob appearing in BD and imprinting on a child Renesmee. I have issues with Jacob and issues with Renesmee, put those two together and it's worse.
Image

User avatar
Jazz Girl
Making beautiful music with Edward as only I can
Posts: 5119
Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2008 9:25 am
Location: Rob's HalfwayHouse, shacked up with some FicWard.

Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Jazz Girl » Tue Sep 06, 2011 7:56 pm

Tornado wrote:Rebecca, the difficulty there is that there is nothing to stop the Volturi dead in their tracks when they come to kill the Cullens. A group of vampires, no matter how big, would not have stopped them. They have Jane and Alec, and no way to know, when they first arrive, that Bella can stop them (she doesn't even know it at that point). The wolves were even there in Forever Dawn, and I believe that is why. SM needed something unexpected to stop the Volturi for a moment, or she knew, because of the nature of the Volturi, a fight would inevitably break out and people we love would die.

So she has to have the wolves fight with the Cullens. And why would they, when the Cullens are standing with plenty of "normal" vampires? It's their job to kill them. Unlike Eclipse, the wolves are not just fighting with vegetarians. So there has to be a force that binds them, and makes them stand with these vampires, in spite of the fact that they should be killing them instead. Nothing less than something like imprinting is going to make them do that.
I can't say as I agree completely. The pack, and more importantly Sam, supported Edward&Bella and the Cullens in her change. Yes, they were ready to attempt to destroy Ness (and Bella to get to her) when they first found out about her. But, what's to say that there wasn't another way to reason with them, even without Jacob running interference? Edward might not have been much help, but Carlisle had earned a great deal of their trust in treating Jacob. His compassion and dedication to human life is unmistakeable. So, let's say everything within The Saga happens just as it does, with the lone change of Jacob staying gone. In stead of Jacob going rogue and interfering, Carlisle is able to reason with Sam, at least delay him in his plans to attack until they are able to ascertain whether or not Ness is a risk to the tribe. Hell, without Jacob, they likely wouldn't have even known about Ness that far in advance of her birth anyways. Once she is born and Bella is turned, she could win over any wolf just as sure as she could win over a vampire. The Cullens convince the pack to stand with them against the Volturi based on the threat to the tribe alone, based on the treaty. In the end, nothing changes, save one less bit of ick. Jacob, running the wilds, hears about the confrontation and eventually heads home, deciding he can't put off facing his family and Bella any longer. When he arrives, Edward&Bella have had their time to bond with and properly define the family dynamic with their baby girl. Maybe everyone even gets to have their cathartic moment and bit of closure, before Jacob, recognizing, however grudgingly, the profound love and dedication that were the only things that could have both created Ness and saved Bella and finally gets to meet her, perhaps as a middle adolescent (say 15 or 16, developmentally). THEN he imprints on her, Bella&Edward both toss his puppy tail across a room and the next adventure of the Clan Cullen begins. Somehow, that time line seems to make a bit more sense to me, as well as translates much better to the big screen... less explanation necessary or protest called for.
“Directing 7 Cullens at once=herding cats" :ROTFLMAO:
C-Dubs is TwitterRoyalty
Image
Turning Page is Gospel~Ashley=MiniMe~HHBS

Tornado
Member: LaPush Cliff Diving Team
Posts: 3609
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: The Land Down Under

Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Tornado » Tue Sep 06, 2011 8:20 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:I can't say as I agree completely. The pack, and more importantly Sam, supported Edward&Bella and the Cullens in her change. Yes, they were ready to attempt to destroy Ness (and Bella to get to her) when they first found out about her. But, what's to say that there wasn't another way to reason with them, even without Jacob running interference? Edward might not have been much help, but Carlisle had earned a great deal of their trust in treating Jacob. His compassion and dedication to human life is unmistakeable.
Yes, but they know about how wonderful Carlisle is prior to all this. It was he who initiated the treaty in the first place, and he's been working at the hospital, but they don't trust him enough to take Emily there when Sam hurts her. And why would they stand with the Cullens against the Volturi when the only threat the Volturi present in coming is to the Cullens? Even if the experience with the newborns gives them a slightly closer relationship, I still don't think it's enough for the pack to stand by them with other human-killing vampires there as well. They would object on those grounds (and fair enough). They might try to kill the Volturi on their own, but they would probably try and kill the Cullens' witnesses too. And even if Renesmee seems safe to them, I don't think that they would be overwhelmed with delight to meet her without Jacob there to smooth things over. Not all the witnesses were taken with her either. The Romanians found her interesting, but I don't think they were delighted with her as some of the witnesses were, and certainly Amun didn't think much of her, or Alistair. So just because some people respond to Nessie, there's no guarantee the wolves would, especially if they wouldn't let her touch them, which is likely. Seth probably would have responded well, but the others would have had a natural suspicion. After all, she is part vampire. I can't imagine Paul, for example, being overwhelmed with delight at news of her existence.
Jazz Girl wrote:Jacob, running the wilds, hears about the confrontation and eventually heads home, deciding he can't put off facing his family and Bella any longer. When he arrives, Edward&Bella have had their time to bond with and properly define the family dynamic with their baby girl.
While this would probably be great for all Team Edward fans, for Team Jacob not so much. And if he's so inconsequential to the book, there's little point in bringing him back at that stage at all. Perhaps another book could have been written about him coming back, but considering that he is a major character in the previous two books having him AWOL for the whole or even most of the book that closes the saga would, I think, have seemed a bit odd to most of us, and would certainly have been unsatisfactory for Jacob's fans.
Image

User avatar
RebeccaCullen
Hanging Up on Jessica
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:15 pm
Location: Surrey BC

Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by RebeccaCullen » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:42 pm

Tornado wrote: Yes, but they know about how wonderful Carlisle is prior to all this. It was he who initiated the treaty in the first place, and he's been working at the hospital, but they don't trust him enough to take Emily there when Sa hurts her.
The reason the pack didn't take Emily to the hospital was because when she was hurt the only trust they had in the Cullen's was enough to set up and maintain the treaty. After the events of EC, things were different between the pack and the Cullen's.

Jacob's revelance to Edward and Bella's story ended the minute Bella finally made her choice in EC to be with Edward. Why keep Jacob around once Bella has made her choice other then to appease Jacob fan's and give him the HEA that he didn't deserve at that point at the end of the TW saga.

Tornado wrote:While this would probably be great for all Team Edward fans, for Team Jacob not so much. And if he's so inconsequential to the book, there's little point in bringing him back at that stage at all. Perhaps another book could have been written about him coming back, but considering that he is a major character in the previous two books having him AWOL for the whole or even most of the book that closes the saga would, I think, have seemed a bit odd to most of us, and would certainly have been unsatisfactory for Jacob's fans.
The vast majority of those reading the series are Team Edward, as seen by the outcry against Jacob and BD. A fair number of team Jacob fan's I've come across are those that have only seen the movies, so I find it hard to accept that Jacob had to be a major player in BD when, like I said, the vast majority reading are Team Edward fans.

Tornado, why is it more important to you for Jacob to be around so much in the final book of Bella and Edward's story? Let's say SM did go with what Jazz Girl just wrote, it leaves, IMO, much more room for SM to continue with a Jacob/Renesmee story then the current story does because it allows SM to devulge into what Jacob did the few months he was away and it allows for him to have some growth as a character. Having Jacob meet and imprint on Renesmee at the end takes away the ick factor that's present with his imprinting on a baby, and gives those that wanted Bella and Edward together get what they want and it allows for Edward, Bella and Renesmee to act like a family. Having Jacob there from the getgo changes the family dynamic between Edward, Bella and their daughter. Jacob gets his HEA, but it's at the expense of Edward and Bella's.
Image

Tornado
Member: LaPush Cliff Diving Team
Posts: 3609
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: The Land Down Under

Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Tornado » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:25 pm

RebeccaCullen wrote:The reason the pack didn't take Emily to the hospital was because when she was hurt the only trust they had in the Cullens was enough to set up and maintain the treaty. After the events of EC, things were different between the pack and the Cullens.
There was a level of trust after the events of Eclipse, but not enough to keep the pack accepting of the Cullens' friends, if those friends killed humans. They would not have just stood by and allowed these people onto their lands without some additional incentive, and that the Cullens allowed these friends to stay with them may have changed the relationship between the Cullens and the pack back to what it had been.
RebeccaCullen wrote:The vast majority of those reading the series are Team Edward, as seen by the outcry against Jacob and BD. A fair number of team Jacob fan's I've come across are those that have only seen the movies, so I find it hard to accept that Jacob had to be a major player in BD when, like I said, the vast majority reading are Team Edward fans.
I know more Team Jacob fans than I do Team Edward fans, and they were all fans of the books before they were fans of the movies. While there are a considerable number less overall, there are still quite a few of them, and even more since the movies have come out. We can't just sweep them under the carpet because it's inconvenient for our favourite character to have theirs around.
RebeccaCullen wrote:Tornado, why is it more important to you for Jacob to be around so much in the final book of Bella and Edward's story?
Because Jacob is a major character in the series and I like all characters to have their story arc completed. If he hadn't come back for the events of BD it would have seemed odd, especially after he was such a major part of the two previous books. It would also have been inconsistent with his character. The wolves would have known what was happening, with all these red-eyed vampires visiting the Cullens, and we know that Jacob could hear them while he was running in Canada, or wherever, even though he was trying not to listen. He would have known something was up, and I can't see someone as bull headed as Jacob, not to mention someone who did genuinely care about his pack and his tribe, staying away when he heard about that. So keeping him away at that point simply doesn't work in the story, nor does it treat his character respectfully. As annoying as I find Jacob, his character is a major part of New Moon and Eclipse, and writing him out of BD just so Bella and Edward can have some alone time is making the story go a way that it can't go because the characters are already drawn and they must behave in a way that works for them. Jacob staying away when there's a huge fight about to go down at home? No way!
Image

User avatar
RebeccaCullen
Hanging Up on Jessica
Posts: 630
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:15 pm
Location: Surrey BC

Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by RebeccaCullen » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:53 pm

Tornado wrote:
RebeccaCullen wrote:Tornado, why is it more important to you for Jacob to be around so much in the final book of Bella and Edward's story?
Because Jacob is a major character in the series and I like all characters to have their story arc completed. If he hadn't come back for the events of BD it would have seemed odd, especially after he was such a major part of the two previous books.
I don't think reverting him back to a minor character would hurt him at all. IMO, having him out of the picture for the vast majority of the book leaves more room for people to wonder where he is and what he's been up to. It would pave the way for SM to start another book with Jacob as the central character instead of forcing Edward and Bella to the back seat of their own story.
Tornado wrote: The wolves would have known what was happening, with all these red-eyed vampires visiting the Cullens, and we know that Jacob could hear them while he was running in Canada, or wherever, even though he was trying not to listen. He would have known something was up, and I can't see someone as bull headed as Jacob, not to mention someone who did genuinely care about his pack and his tribe, staying away when he heard about that. So keeping him away at that point simply doesn't work in the story, nor does it treat his character respectfully. As annoying as I find Jacob, his character is a major part of New Moon and Eclipse, and writing him out of BD just so Bella and Edward can have some alone time is making the story go a way that it can't go because the characters are already drawn and they must behave in a way that works for them. Jacob staying away when there's a huge fight about to go down at home? No way!
I don't doubt that Jacob would have returned when he realized that there was something wrong but keeping him around and having him overstay his welcome get tiersome with how often he appeared on paper because I thought the books were meant to be about Edward and Bella and not Jacob like the last book felt. SM seemed to have shifted the focus of the story from Edward and Bella to Jacob/Renesmee and in the process did a disservice to those that want to read about Edward and Bella and not Jacob.
Image

Tornado
Member: LaPush Cliff Diving Team
Posts: 3609
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2011 7:06 pm
Location: The Land Down Under

Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Tornado » Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:30 pm

Of course, there are some who wanted to read about both, and I guess SM is one of them.
Image

Post Reply