Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Discussion of the Twilight Saga: Breaking Dawn 1

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Jacobs-girl » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:47 am

corona wrote:Jacobs-girl, the issue with imprinting lies mainly with children, because this mechanism or feature that stalls romanticism between the couple is incomprehensible. It's something that fans simply have to accept, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. It is not human nature for a child to grow up and then fall in love with the person they always looked to as their big brother.
True, but my point is that although imprinting appears to 'traditionally' end in romance, there is potential for it to go another way. When Renesmee matures, she might have become so used to Jacob being an older brother figure that she needs and wants him to continue being an uncle/brother figure.

I still maintain that imprinting does not necessarily lead to romance, and SM actually said this too, so I think that the story of Jacob and Renesmee could differ from the imprinting norm.There is no guarantee that Renesmee will fall in love with him when she grows up and if she wants Jacob to remain her friend (as opposed to boyfriend), then that is what he will stay.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Tornado » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:39 am

I think that it's a possibility, yes. Jacob says as much to Bella when she asks about Claire. He says that she will have a choice. Of course, then he adds, "But why wouldn't she choose him, in the end? He'll be her perfect match. Like he was designed for her alone." So it may be a possibility, but I think it's an unlikely one. Every reference in the books refers, at some point, to the imprintee and the imprinter being destined for one another. It is the most likely outcome.
Jacob's-girl wrote:I still maintain that imprinting does not necessarily lead to romance, and SM actually said this too,
I think SM is just hedging her bets by saying that, so that people think there's a possibility they may not end up together so the outcome isn't obvious if she ends up writing that story one day.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:20 am

Tornado wrote:I think that it's a possibility, yes. Jacob says as much to Bella when she asks about Claire. He says that she will have a choice. Of course, then he adds, "But why wouldn't she choose him, in the end? He'll be her perfect match. Like he was designed for her alone." So it may be a possibility, but I think it's an unlikely one. Every reference in the books refers, at some point, to the imprintee and the imprinter being destined for one another. It is the most likely outcome.
Jacob's-girl wrote:I still maintain that imprinting does not necessarily lead to romance, and SM actually said this too,
I think SM is just hedging her bets by saying that, so that people think there's a possibility they may not end up together so the outcome isn't obvious if she ends up writing that story one day.
Yes, there's a lot of that fudging going on. On the one hand, SM really wants Jacob and Nessie to be a couple and for Bella to have that link to humanity. On the other hand there is the issue of choice versus the apparent inevitability of romance. When adults are involved and there is an immediate reciprocation by the imprintee, that issue of choice may still be there but it becomes very blurred. When children are involved that issue of inevitability and expectation arises and it seems that the child is simply fated to that one romantic path. Not right away, of course, but it is still there.

And then you take the flip side and give the imprintee a true choice, and when they become an adult they exercise that true choice and pick someone else, leaving the imprinters as eternal virgins running around the woods at night sniffing out threats while their imprintee is making love to someone else. Ghastly scenario!

BTW, I know we talk about how the movie will portray it, but how will the interviews go after the premiere?

Taylor: Oh yeah, that imprinting thing, it's mainly as a protector, kind of a wolf thing, it doesn't mean anything more than that.

Stephenie: Yes, Jacob and Nessie are "good to go", he just has to wait a while.

Taylor: Errrr....
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Jazz Girl » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:21 pm

Tornado wrote:Of course, there are some who wanted to read about both, and I guess SM is one of them.

I think the entire debate goes back to the passion that draws us to The Saga in the first place. In all honesty, and this is absolutely no insult against SM or The Saga, this is the only novel series that I can think of where the readers have taken such posession of the characters and of the story. And, also, it's the only series that I can think of where there are so many points along the line where readers really can see a different way to go, a different choice to be made or path to be taken. The passion that readers have for this story and for the characters is how I first found it. I came to the series when BD was released and up until that moment, I had honestly completely dismissed it. I mistook it as just another teen romance, a knock off of BtVS and a interloper in YA fiction trying to capitolize on the end of HP. Then I witnessed something that changed my life, in all honesty. Hubs and I happened to be out for a date on the night BD was released. The new movie theater where we went happened to be next to a Borders that was hosting a release party and so was open late. We wandered in and there I saw all manner of people ready to celebrate the release of BD. I was amazed. There were everyone from 11 and 12 year old girls and boys, to those who appeared to be grandmothers to me, but without any kids with them. As Hubs and I wandered around, taking complete advantage of the extended hours, I witnessed the passion of which I speak. I walked up to the coffee counter and, as I was waiting in line, overheard what can only be called an out and out argument between four women who were my age (early 30's) completely going after each other over these characters and the story. I was flabberghasted and I said to my husband, "okay, if these women feel this strongly about this story, maybe I need to give it a shot." I bought the first novel that night, and the rest is history. And, as you may realize, I became just as passionate and found that most fans are equally as passionate.

That brings me to that discussion about the idea of different choices that could have been made. HP is the standard comparison, even though it's a completely different kind of series and I personally hate the comparisons, it is one that works for this point. If you think back along the timeline of HP, and you think about the choices that are made that lead Harry, Hermione and Ron to the end of HP&tDH, there are not many places where you can seriously look and say that they could have done something differently and still ended at the same place, and with the same result. The same is absolutely not true for The Saga. There are plenty of places where different things could have legitimately happened and it would have lead to the same end result. Small changes that while not altering the overall character arc or storyline but still ending with the major events intact. Think about how you reread the novels, for example. When I reread NM, I actually do skip, or at least skim, the majority of the middle 300 pages. It's not important to me. I don't need to see first hand all of the things that happen between Jacob and Bella to know what he does, what she does and why. I do the same in Eclipse. There are parts that I just can't reconcile with the characters that I know. So, I skip them. And, I can honestly say that I don't miss anything or lose any part of the story.

And that is where we end up with such vehement discussion of the final movie. As I said, seeing those pieces, those decisions, those interactions that, within the frame of the books, we as readers are able to gloss over, or write off, or ignore because they don't fit for us brought to the screen in a way that we can't ignore, and we can't write off is what, I think, causes such trepidation about the film. And, in turn, that's likely to bite Summit and the production team in the butt. I realize that there are fans across the board who have differing opinions of the importance of characters and events. And, I am one of the most vocal about the movie remaining true to the books. However, to which story within the books should they remain true? We've all agreed, at least, that the central story within BD is and should be Edward&Bella's happily ever after and the final hurdles they overcome to get there. I'm merely pointing out that there were ways in which the book could have been different that would have fit better with a screen adaptation and there are legitimate changes that SM could have made that would have avoided all of the hubub regarding the movie adaptation of her novel.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:44 pm

Excellent points, JazzGirl. I think it's good to point out that even Stephenie herself was more than willing to change "canon" when it suited her in order to get the story she wanted. A good example of that is her outtake from New Moon where Bella is unaware that Jacob is a shapeshifter until the very end. The canon then was that Jacob was incapable of discussing his status with Bella due to Sam's alpha commands. When SM decided to bind Bella and Jacob together more tightly, suddenly Jacob is able to find a way around his restrictions and break the rules.

I would have preferred having Jacob being mostly written out of BD, I think it would have made it better. It also would have set up a second series involving Jacob and Nessie without all of the baggage. I think maybe, however, that SM simply wanted to end the series and didn't want to commit to another one picking things up from Jacob's POV, so everything got mashed together.

That's a funny thing, though, isn't it? I would have liked to see less of Jacob in BD so I could have seen more of him in a subsequent series. But since I saw too much of him in BD, I'm not sure I want to see more of him since the jamming together of the HEA's created a lot of antipathy to Jacob that I think was avoidable.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Chernaudi » Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:49 pm

First of all, I loved BD for it's romantic elements and the Volturi being forced to walk home empty handed with their tails between their legs without a "shot" being fired. But I do have one major complaint, in spite of it being my favorite along with New Moon (BD and NM are tied for first, and Twilight is a close second, and Eclipse, obviously, is third), and that is that some of the stuff seemed to be rushed and really packed together, especially with Jacob in the picture. It just seemed that Stephanie tried to shoehorn a ton of stuff in BD and tried not to make it one of the longest fictional books released in recent memory. Of course, in doing that, there'll be compromises.

In Twilight, the story was about 500 pages long, NM was about 550 or so, Eclipse was 650 or so, and BD is nearly 800. I have nothing against long stories, and it may be convenient to have everything in one book, but sometimes it's better just to have a two part story.

I can see the argument about Stephanie changing canon within here story to suit a change in storyline or her train of thought, but that can be argued for the Twilight Saga, period, as far as what most people believe vampires and shape-shifters/werewolves to "be", which is part of the reason why some people trash the films with petty complaint and I feel that they should not just judge a book by it's cover as far as it being a vampire film and should consider the novel's canon and its impact on the film.

PS: Has anyone read the Premiere mag article linked on the main page?
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Tornado » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:24 pm

Jazz Girl wrote:I think the entire debate goes back to the passion that draws us to The Saga in the first place. In all honesty, and this is absolutely no insult against SM or The Saga, this is the only novel series that I can think of where the readers have taken such posession of the characters and of the story. And, also, it's the only series that I can think of where there are so many points along the line where readers really can see a different way to go, a different choice to be made or path to be taken.
This is so true, and I think it's one of the reasons why we all argue about it so much. We see our viewpoint as being "right" so all others must be wrong. And there are so many different ways to go!

Whenever I'm talking about these things, especially when people say that SM should have done this or that, I always remember the comment made by Shannon Hale in the interview in the guide. She talks about one of her novels, and how she contemplated writing a sequel to it. She met a fan one day who was delighted to hear that she was considering a sequel. This fan then went on to tell Shannon what happened in the sequel! This told Shannon that she shouldn't write it, because it was clear that there were expectations for the characters that were not going to be met, because she knew what did happen, and it wasn't what this girl thought was going to happen!

In the end, this is a saga that we're fortunate enough to read. And we have to cop it when it doesn't go the way we want (in the books, anyway), because it's not our decision. I'm just grateful that SM decided to share these characters with us at all. I'll put up with the things I don't like because of that.
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by corona » Fri Sep 09, 2011 10:31 am

Tornado wrote:This is so true, and I think it's one of the reasons why we all argue about it so much. We see our viewpoint as being "right" so all others must be wrong. And there are so many different ways to go!
Hey, I'm always right...except when I'm not. :)

I will tell you one thing, I fully expect this BD movie to be the final answer to some questions. This is SM's last chance, as a producer, to insist that certain things are done right. BD was the source of a lot of confusion on some things, so this is going to be it.

For example, those missing moments of Edward and Bella and Renesmee were, I believe, entirely unintentional. That is an easy fix for the movie and I have full confidence they will be there.

But how about the dynamics between Bella and Edward and Jacob during her pregnancy? There are a lot of interpretations for that. I fully expect the movie to portray the spirit of the canon. This is where SM has to step in and provide guidance, and I am sure that she did.

So what I am expecting is something that wasn't there in prior movies, which is SM's full stamp of approval -- this is the way it really was. And, in some cases, this is the way it should have been in places where there was confusion or where wrong assumptions were made.

P.S. Let me clarify. First there should NOT be any motorcycle scenes, period.

Something more subtle, though, are the relationship dynamics during the pregnancy. JazzGirl has pointed out on another thread that there were times where Bella appears to be openly flirting with Jacob during that time. I think it is fair to say that at the very least there were times when SM was flirting around with some of the scenes, doing a little toying with us, all to be explained later due to the impending imprinting. There was some playing up of Jacob, and there was no better way of SM flattering him than through Bella.

I can see Bill Condon approaching Stephenie and asking her about this. If she definitely wants to keep in some of that ambiguity, she would have to understand that her imprinting explanation won't come at all until BD2, the audience might not get it or accept it, so does she really, really want to keep that dynamic in. Just how that is portrayed on screen, I think, will give us a good idea about what SM really thought was important.
"It will take an amazing amount of control,” she mused. “More even than Carlisle has. He may be just strong enough…the only thing he’s not strong enough to do is stay away from her. That’s a lost cause.”

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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Tornado » Fri Sep 09, 2011 6:03 pm

The EW article did suggest though, that there are some intimate scenes between Jacob and Bella when she is pregnant. Exactly how far these go and what they cover, and whether or not they make Edward seemed sidelined is my biggest concern.

It does look like they are at least showing that Jacob has imprinted in this film, as they have talked about the imprinting scene, and Taylor said that the scene where Edward throws Jacob is in response to learning that he has imprinted on Renesmee. How deep the explanation can get in the first film is questionable though, but they may take time to explain any cuddling he did with Bella. Although if there is cuddling with Bella I will probably get up and walk out!
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Re: Worried about Breaking Dawn?

Post by Jazz Girl » Fri Sep 09, 2011 8:58 pm

Tornado wrote: Although if there is cuddling with Bella I will probably get up and walk out!

Believe me, I'm totally with you on this point. But, this does go back to the crux of my argument. We KNOW there should be cuddling. It's in the book. There are actually moments where she's stretched out with her head on Edward's shoulder as Jacob rubs her feet. But being able to kind of gloss over that in the book and ignore it's presence and seeing it slap you in the face on a 22 ft movie screen in living technicolor are two very different things. I believe that most fans will have a similar reaction and I'm worried that that is going to come back and bite this movie squarely on the hind end.

On a wholly other topic, after debating with several folks regarding the official movie poster released yesterday, it looks like we're already staring a giant continuity error right in the face. If you haven't seen it, the official poster can be found here. The debate was whether or not having Bella's ring on her right hand was done only for the poster, so it would be visable. But, we also have official pictures that show Bella clearly wearing a wedding band on her left hand. Makes sense. It is traditional for women, particularly when they have an engagement ring like Bella's that is not a part of a set and doesn't lend itself to being worn with a band, to switch the engagement ring to their right hand. But, we also have plenty of photos of Bella after the wedding not wearing anything on her right hand. Just look at my avvy (taken during Lapa street festival filming). I know it's picky, but this is exactly the kind of thing that will drive me nuts during the movie.
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